Doing wrong is not black and white even in law.
My own father who of course had never heard of Prince Andrew, could not sweat. My mother , who had never heard of Prince Andrew, told me this when I was was girl . My mother did not explain about the adrenaline thing as she had no medical knowledge, but after Andrew's admission about not sweating . I can understand how hormones are affected by some severe life events. My father was at the Eastern Front during the Great War.
Also in support of Prince Andrew, he probably did not even know that it was illegal or even immoral to shag an unknown and poor seventeen year old girl. Very rich people have odd childhoods, and it takes special efforts by parents and teachers to teach them what real life is.
Let’s assume he did have sexual intercourse with her in Maxwell’s house, and she was eager to go to bed with him , if he was to say he did he would be found guilty of rape because she said she was forced to by Epstein and Maxwell
I suppose the onus then would be to prove that andrew knew she had been procured?
Yes and how can that be proved .
I don’t think the judge will dismiss the case
Unless someone has a bombshell to drop, who knows?
I don’t know but think Andrew has such a big ego he believed
and girl would want to go to bed with him.
His tv interview showed an arrogant man of little brain
Yes, I would think it's possible that the men didn't even stop to consider anything other than that.
His tv interview showed an arrogant man of little brain
I know people who served with him and that seemed to be the general consensus before all this was brought to light.
I knew someone who served with him many years ago, when he was a "humble" lieutenant. He breezed onto the ship and reported to introduced himself to the captain, adding, "You can call me Andrew"
The captain replied, "And you can call me sir."
I feel sorry for him , he is in the real world for the first time in 61 years
And yet a member of my family, who served with him in the Falklands has a different view from some on here.
I wasn’t there, so all I know, including my relative’s words, is hearsay.
They’ll sort it out one way or another and the sooner the better. I suspect the civil case will go ahead. I find the ‘not guilty because of the deal that woman signed with Epstein’ is not a good way to go. Even if he was exonerated of all charges, no one will actually believe it.
I’m glad I’m not his parent. Imagine if your son had/hadn’t done this and their name was constantly in the press and the media with people criticising you.
Imagine if your son had/hadn’t done this and their name was constantly in the press and the media with people criticising you.
People are generally criticising him, not his mum.
Mollygo I have no experience of being criticised in the media
but was criticised on Facebook because my darling daughter was a bipolar sufferer and I supported her no matter what her illness caused her to do or say.
The Queen must be very distressed
Alegrias1
^Imagine if your son had/hadn’t done this and their name was constantly in the press and the media with people criticising you.^
People are generally criticising him, not his mum.
I have no problem with the criticism of PA. I should have just asked how you would feel if it was your offspring.
Generally, yes, but there’s a few comments mentioning the Queen.
it's clear he had sex with her, 3 times (it states on the news)
back in the day unless girls had their ages stamped on their foreheads how could you tell how old they were?
many a young man in recent years has fallen foul of that in the uk.
in america it's classed as rape if under 17...... he had sex with her, he didn't rape or sexually abuse her but that's the legal term. she has lived in Austraia for 11 years, just saying.
I suspect he is sweating now!
Hopefully we won’t have to wait too long for the Judge’s decision.
lemsip, I can’t recall ‘many a young man has fallen foul’ of not noticing the girl they were having set with was 13. The police manage these situations sensibly most of the time. If the age gap is 4 years or so, the girl says she loves him, he’s her boyfriend, prosecution is unlikely even when her dad is insisting on it.
We need to be careful about blurring the lines between child sexual exploitation and ordinary life
This is a discussion about 17 year olds
What I don’t understand is the argument that Windsor can’t be taken to court because Epstein’s agreement prevents Giuffre from doing so.
So how does that work, given that Windsor is denying everything? Surely by using the Epstein clause it is tacitly admitting involvement.
Just listened to R4 saying that Windsor has never been very kind to people, so there is little desire to offer him support by the RF and palace.
I think that is no surprise. He has an unpleasant reputation.
The judge will rule against the appeal . If he agreed with the agreement Giuffrie signed there would be no court case, Andrew wouldn’t be proved guilty or innocent but he wouldn’t
have to answer any questions, end of.
I don’t agree that raising the defence of the agreement is tacitly admitting involvement wwm. The agreement is intended to prevent actions being taken against associates of Epstein who are potential defendants. Courts frequently make judgments in favour of defendants. I’m not defending PA, just giving my view for what little it’s worth.
Who else would be likely to need to use the agreement other than associates of Epstein, who made use of sex trafficked children and young women?
Associates who a woman alleges used her in this way, and decides to sue for financial gain, who are completely innocent of the claims. It happens, the woman may be believed and the man is ruined. Epstein was looking to protect his wide range of associates at the time.
Some refer to Epstein’s black book, Henry Kissinger is listed in it , Epstein certainly knew powerful people.
Seemingly all of Epstein’s friends were power players, chosen for their use to him, and they must all have known rather a lot about his proclivities. Way back in 2002, Donald Trump was joking pointedly to New York magazine that Epstein liked them “on the younger side”. Beyond that, plenty of ageing Epstein buddies were involved in his web of abuse, accepting hospitality on “Paedo Island”, ferried in aboard his “Lolita Express” private plane. But they’ve all retreated into their money, their omertàs, and the timeworn knowledge that reckonings are for women and other little people.
Epstein knew the code better than anyone, which is presumably why he took care in his 2009 settlement with Giuffre to exempt others from being named as “potential defendants” in the future. What a thoughtful legacy to his bros. And how remarkable that Prince Andrew should regard seizing it as his best defensive shot. Swerving court via a loophole provided by one of the leading international paedos of the age … Well, if that isn’t staying classy, then I really don’t know what is.
Marina Hyde is a Guardian columnist
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/04/loophole-dead-sex-trafficker-stay-classy-andrew-virginia-giuffre-epstein
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