Panorama. The Dairy Industry

I didn’t watch the programme. I’m a vegetarian and always buy organic milk. I’d always hoped that buying organic milk would ensure better welfare for the cows. Was this the case or was there no difference?

I couldn't watch as I knew I'd get upset.

We eat quite a bit of cheese and yogurt, but only have milk on cereal in the morning. And I have to say I am very happy to live where farms are smaller and regulations very strict- but I know it does not garantee cruelty free 100%. I live near 2 farms, and we often hear cows call for their babies when they are taken away from them- and it breaks my heart. The farmer ladies is lovely, and I know she is truly caring for her animals- but she says 'it's the way it is- they soon get over it''.

Perhaps a thread on different non dairy milks- as almond milk is apparently an ecological disaster as it is so water thirsty and grow in region where water is scarce. Soya is not much better- and the cause of much deforestation!

Some of our friends use oat milk- which seems to be much better for the environment- especially if left over oats can be fed to birds or put in compost. It is actually very easy to make yourself.

Gwyneth

I didn’t watch the programme. I’m a vegetarian and always buy organic milk. I’d always hoped that buying organic milk would ensure better welfare for the cows. Was this the case or was there no difference?

Interestingly they didn't address that in the programme, although I fast forwarded some bits as too harrowing. Like you I've been vegetarian for years ( actually lapse to pescatarian occasionally) and have only bought organic milk for years so I'd be interested to know. We live in N.ireland now and since Brexit I've found it impossible to get organic cheese in either Marks and Spencer or supermarkets here.

I saw the program and was in tears, how can people be so cruel?
Supermarkets need to up the price and make sure the increase goes to the farmers. I’m going shopping today and shall find a replacement for my skimmed milk, any suggestions please?

Why upping the price of milk would make farmers treat their cows better?

Whitewavemark2

Yes I am pleased that this is finally beginning to be talked about.

For years we have been fed pap by such programmes as Countryfile and the farmers market programmes, and I always knew how bad it was.

I feel that I can no longer in all conscience continue to buy milk.

I agree about Countryfile. I have always been uncomfortable with seeing presenters slapping beef cattle on the rump to illustrate how good their beef is, and find it very distressing to see them eating meat within the sight and smell of the rest of the herd. I am vegetarian, use oat milk, non dairy spreads, but still eat cheese and eggs. Cheese will be a hard one to give up, but I shall work on it.

the great majority of dairy farmers treat their cows with loving care. The intensive dairy farmers I know, keep their cows indoors as soon as the ground gets too wet. Huge very airy barns where they are free to wander, masses of clean straw to lie on and lovely calm classical music always playing. There is bad husbandry in any situation which includes animals, including cats and dogs. Naturally the bbc picked out the very worst, it makes headlines

I like plant milk, I make my own but I also use organic milk and butter from grass fed cows. I am an omnivore, as nature intended

MaizieD

This willingness to pay more for milk, or change to expensive alternatives is all very fine, but it isn't going to work for those people who have to choose between heating or eating.

Not that I've any idea as to what the solution is; just trying to think round it.

Yes you are right of course, but the market has been built around dairy produce.

As more who can afford to do so choose to buy non-dairy products it will gradually become more affordable to the less well off I would have thought. Hopefully.

We can’t go on like this. It is dreadful to inflict such cruelty on sentient beings.

I was a vegetarian since age of 10 so I thought I’d had a lifetime of cheese , when. I decided to give up dairy I bought various vegan recipe books and haven’t been tempted. Have since discovered Violife cheese spread which tasted just like Philadelphia and their cheddar is also acceptable in a sandwich with tomato etc. Yeast Flakes with B12 have a Parmesan flavour and are good on top of pasta dishes etc. The only time I’d now be tempted by cheese is when you see one of those trolleys in a French restaurant , but haven’t been to France for a while! Oat milk is the best taste wise and environmentally many times better than dairy. The commercial plant milks are fortified the same as cows milk with vitamins. Give it a try if you really care about the fate of these creatures and the planet.

Thanks Vegansrock !

As more who can afford to do so choose to buy non-dairy products it will gradually become more affordable to the less well off I would have thought. Hopefully.

I'm not too sure how that works, Wwmk2. If the market were to be flooded with cows' milk because more people were using plant milks and vegan 'dairy' products I suspect that the supermarkets would be working to pay less for their milk. Which would pass on a lower price to consumers, yes, (perhaps) but would possibly put pressure on individual farmers to produce even more, with the danger of intensifying poor animal treatment, in an effort to maintain their income. I don't know...

Perhaps we should be looking at it from the other way and be looking at improving animal husbandry practice via state involvement. It has always seemed to me to be a bit weird that we place so much reliance on animal charities and pressure groups to bring about changes.

OTOH. We don't know just how widespread the cruelty shown on the programme actually is... For all we know, there might be thousands of very annoyed farmers today seething at the misrepresentation of their industry.

It's like the woman who kicked and punched the horse. It wasn't a true representation of how most people treat their horses...

Cows have their calves removed, but are forced to keep lactating. This means that instead of a life span if 20+ years, they have a life span of 5-7 years.
Doesn't sound very nice

Interesting article about a farmer who doesn't separate them at 1 day old, but when the calves are ready to be weaned
www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/29/mums-ask-when-cows-and-their-calves-separated-rise-ethical-milk-vegan

Agree about Country file, it's like a picture book about farming. This type of behaviour will only drive up awareness and prompt more people to ditch dairy. I did watch the programme, too distressing. I read an account of a farm worker who saw the farmer go up to a newborn calf who was suckling. He thought that he was going to pet it, instead he shot it. The image of milk and blood gurgling out if it's mouth gas stayed with me. Don't see that on Countryfile.

Many male calves are just shot at birth

I saw a 'secret film' some time ago, and have experimented with different veg milks ever since, I buy oat milk.

We buy organic milk for ourselves, but it doesn't seem to be available in UHT form for food bank donations - or not here anyway although I have seen it in France in the days when we could go there . If oat milk can be produced in this country instead of Scandinavia that would mean fewer food miles, but Kali2 is right about the environmental horrors of almond and soya milk.

Wheniwastourage organic UHT milk is widely available in supermarkets, from these people. www.creditondairy.co.uk/brand/moo-organic-milk/

I use it to make yogurt. It’s lovely milk.

Also, organic milk must conform to organic farming principles so cows are properly treated. This is from Wiki but it’s easy enough to Google ‘organic milk’ and read up about it.

In general, all livestock used to produce organic milk must be maintained using the methods of organic farming as defined in the jurisdiction where the milk will be sold, and generally must be certified in order to be marketed as organic. In general, these laws require that livestock be allowed to graze on pasture, be fed organic certified feed (which may not include byproducts of animal slaughter), and that the animals not be treated with drugs (although it is also illegal to withhold necessary drugs from a sick animal in order to maintain that animal's organic status).

www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/comments/ewu8pu/environmental_impact_of_different_types_of_milk/

In terms of environmental impact dairy is far worse ( more than double the amount of water, and emissions of almond) than any of the plant milks. Oat and rice are amongst the best . Have a look. at this chart.

Are calves left with organic cows? Or taken away and shot?

Thanks, SueDonim. I'll look out for that. We do also buy organic yoghurt from Yeo Valley, although I sometimes wonder about the food miles bringing it from there all the way to nearly the other end of the country! Tesco organic butter is made from UK milk, although it doesn't say whereabouts - perhaps it varies.

I didn't see the programme but thank you for posting about it. I'm very concerned about animal welfare and there is so much abuse in our system of production of animal based food, don't read about abattoirs if you get easily upset!

I've been veggie all my adult life but I can't digest lactose now so I've had to get used to plant milks. I agree with others that oat milk is quite creamy and once you get used to it, the taste is somehow cleaner than dairy. Dairy is actually full of saturated fat so I now don't miss cow's milk or butter and I feel better for not eating it. There is also controversial evidence between dairy and breast cancer.

All the nut milks are fortified and are very good for you being high in B vitamins and mostly low calorie. Almond is nice but environmentally costly to produce. Hazelnut milk is very traditional food for us in Europe and is creamy, I like it in coffee. Coconut milk is good but high in saturated fat.

As for the price that we pay for all our food, milk included! The supermarkets need to be persuaded to change their policies. It's good to see many of them selling wonky vegetables and local produce, there's still too much imported from places like Egypt and Kenya. Perhaps that's off topic, it's all linked for me.

On the more cheerful side,there has been a huge rise in the numbers of people buying oat juice which which tastes and cooks like cow milk.

Oat juice quickly became so much in demand that Tesco was quick to produce its own brand at an amazing price.

It's impossible to leave calves to consume their mothers' milk. Every drop of milk , or milk produce , we consume is stolen from calves. This has always been the case since cows were domesticated and always will be the case.

The best solution to the moral dilemma is to ensure all people get enough money to buy basic food and also pay a welfare price for it.

Countryfile is my big hate. Matt whatever his name is being all cuddly and caring as he sorted the sheep out into those expecting one lamb, twins, triplets etc., and then those not in lamb. He said they will go to market in a cheery way as if they were being sent on holiday or to a retirement village when we all know the reality.