Vagina Museum

Anyone who knows anything about childrens literature knows there is a whole genre of boarding school books for girls of which EBD is just one (Possibly the best but that's another discussion).
The point about JM and JKR is that there are so many parallels it's impossible to think there wasn't some influence and as I said all that was needed was a small statement of acknowledgemen of Jill Murphy's inspiring books. Of course she probably didn't want more people realising the similarities. Instead when the Worst Witch books were republished after HP Jill Murphy received letters accusing her of ripping JKR off.
As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins.

Why can't you see or understand that our concerns are not about the ordinary person in the street who wishes to present as a woman, is no bother to any one and just wants to live their life in peace? Our concerns are that, in allowing men to self identify as women and claim all rights, privileges and services that go with that, they remove, dilute and diminish those rights, privileges and services for natal women. The very word WOMAN is fast becoming removed from the English lexicon; people who menstruate, breast feeders, cervix havers, child carriers - all of these can only be carried out by the demographic of people who have a certain set of chromosomes and gametes vis-a-vis an Adult Human Female. Politicians are tying themselves in knots trying to not use the word WOMAN because they, like you, are trying to convince us that any one can be a woman and that natal women really should stop making a fuss that some men are intent on using that "right to be a woman" in order to harm natal women. It is acknowledged that this is a minority of men but there have been too many instances where natal women have been harmed by that minority. Think prisons, rape crisis centres, domestic abuse safe havens..... all those places that you trisher condemned as being "straw man arguments". But they matter; they're vitally important to those natal women who need them.

I'm also aware that, whilst there is a loudening voice of men who are demanding that women accept them into their safe spaces and stop complaining; there is almost total silence from the cohort of women, who wish to be known as men, making any similar demands on men's safe spaces. They're not demanding that men's toilets, changing rooms, prisons be opened up to them nor are they demanding that the word MEN be removed from male products, invitations for male medical procedures and men's personal healthcare items. Why would that be do you think?

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

Chewbacca

Why can't you see or understand that our concerns are not about the ordinary person in the street who wishes to present as a woman, is no bother to any one and just wants to live their life in peace? Our concerns are that, in allowing men to self identify as women and claim all rights, privileges and services that go with that, they remove, dilute and diminish those rights, privileges and services for natal women. The very word WOMAN is fast becoming removed from the English lexicon; people who menstruate, breast feeders, cervix havers, child carriers - all of these can only be carried out by the demographic of people who have a certain set of chromosomes and gametes vis-a-vis an Adult Human Female. Politicians are tying themselves in knots trying to not use the word WOMAN because they, like you, are trying to convince us that any one can be a woman and that natal women really should stop making a fuss that some men are intent on using that "right to be a woman" in order to harm natal women. It is acknowledged that this is a minority of men but there have been too many instances where natal women have been harmed by that minority. Think prisons, rape crisis centres, domestic abuse safe havens..... all those places that you trisher condemned as being "straw man arguments". But they matter; they're vitally important to those natal women who need them.

I'm also aware that, whilst there is a loudening voice of men who are demanding that women accept them into their safe spaces and stop complaining; there is almost total silence from the cohort of women, who wish to be known as men, making any similar demands on men's safe spaces. They're not demanding that men's toilets, changing rooms, prisons be opened up to them nor are they demanding that the word MEN be removed from male products, invitations for male medical procedures and men's personal healthcare items. Why would that be do you think?

Because the law protects those things Chewbacca and as far as I can see no one is proposing to change that. If it isn't properly applied that isn't the fault of transpeople anymore than it is your fault or my fault. There's a lot of hot air being blown about about a relatively few cases that are perpetually posted as examples of what really happens. Unfortunately they are getting a bit dated now. And as far as I can see little in daily life has changed and little will change. Although if some have their way perhaps we'll all have to flash our genitals at the loo door.

Rosie51

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

You need to post this to copper3 because she doesn't.

The discussion has once again only come down to transwomen.
For the record there are transwomen, transmen and non-binary people. They all deserve recognition.
Now I'm leaving

And you're leaving again before you answered my question as to why trans men are not making the same demands as trans women?? Drat!

trisher

Rosie51

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

You need to post this to copper3 because she doesn't.

Why do you perpetuate this lie? You know full well what copper3 meant by her post. It's not only disingenuous of you, it's being especially condescending and nasty.

Chewbacca

And you're leaving again before you answered my question as to why trans men are not making the same demands as trans women?? Drat!

Was that a question? Well actually I didn't know they were, or if they are. There seem to me to be more women's products available in my local chemists than ever before. But I'll check it out next time I'm in.

Rosie51

trisher

Rosie51

Exactly Mollygo, how are we supposed to differentiate between trisher's posts when the one before last gave a link to a woman born without a uterus which was totally factual, but heaven knows what she hoped to prove with that, I think we all know some women are born with uterus or ovaries absent.

As for taking the piss. I like the expression. It has great historic origins. so does the word woman...........

You need to post this to copper3 because she doesn't.

Why do you perpetuate this lie? You know full well what copper3 meant by her post. It's not only disingenuous of you, it's being especially condescending and nasty.

Just as an aside and before I go. Surgeons have performed uterus transplants on women born without one and they have given birth. So if eventually transwomen will be able to have uterus transplants will you then accept them?

I've always accepted them as transwomen. Having a transplanted uterus will not change them into biological females.

trisher

The discussion has once again only come down to transwomen.
For the record there are transwomen, transmen and non-binary people. They all deserve recognition.
Now I'm leaving

As has been said over and over on these threads, transmen are less of a threat to women, as like the majority of people posting on GN, they are biologically female. Male-bodied people, whether or not they 'present as female' (whatever that means) tend to be bigger and stronger than us. Transmen tend to be the same as we are, so we are less concerned about having them next to us in changing rooms or carrying out intimate examinations without our consent.

IMO the vast majority of people are non-binary, if 'gender' comes down to presentation and 'identification'. When it comes to sex, however, we are all one or the other, so of course we are more uneasy about male-bodied people being in our spaces, the more so if they are not easily identifiable.

You frequently raise the idea that the only way to deal with this is to insist on people 'flashing' or 'checking' one another's genitals on these threads, and you are just as frequently told that no, it is not necessary at all. As we have said ad nauseam, in the vast majority of day to day life we don't care if the person next to us on the bus, or in the next seat at the hairdresser, or serving us in the pub, or teaching our children is male, female or trans. It Doesn't Matter.

It is only when we are vulnerable in hospital, so can't move quickly and there is a man in a nightie in the next bed, or unfortunately (or deservedly) in jail and banged up with a male sex-offender overnight, or our religious belief precludes intimate touching by a man and our gynaecologist is a transwoman, or our young grandchild is stripping down in next to an intact man in the swimming baths, or, or. . .

None of these are everyday occurrences, but you appear to think that it should always be the women involved who should put up with it, however vulnerable or distressed it makes them feel. Why not ask the ones who are asking us to accommodate them, (and in so doing causing the feelings of distress and vulnerability) to rein it in a bit, and consider how we feel?

IMO, one way to deal with it would be to make 'posing as a woman for nefarious purposes' a specific crime, and have a separate penalty attached - in the same way as carrying a knife is a separate offence that is added to one of theft from the person etc. That way, the transwoman in the hairdressers can carry on, but the bloke in the changing rooms stroking himself as a child is showering is criminalised.

The business of mangling the language to eradicate women is for another thread, or at least another post.

Chewbacca thinking about the products you mentioned and things like "birth person" etc aren't many of those demands being made by transmen? Because although they may continue to use the product they no longer identify as women. So actually many of them have absolutely nothing to do with natal men or transwomen.

* trisher are you really going or just TTP?
Just as an aside and before I go. Surgeons have performed uterus transplants on women born without one and they have given birth. So if eventually transwomen will be able to have uterus transplants will you then accept them?
As transwomen, yes same as I do now.

There seem to me to be more women's products available in my local chemists than ever before. But I'll check it out next time I'm in.

Please do. And be sure to check if condoms are advertised for "people with penises" or public health warnings for "people with a prostate" or "people with testes". Unlikely you'll find the word MEN erased from anywhere.

trisher

Chewbacca thinking about the products you mentioned and things like "birth person" etc aren't many of those demands being made by transmen? Because although they may continue to use the product they no longer identify as women. So actually many of them have absolutely nothing to do with natal men or transwomen.

I couldn't care less who is making the demands to eradicate women from the language - it is the fact that it is happening with the complicity of anti-feminists and the cowardice of politicians that infuriates me.

The squirming and doublespeak that is displayed when these people are asked the simple question 'What is a woman?' is unbelievable. If we had been told even five years ago that such a question would be impossible to answer without fear of cancellation or threats of rape and death, who would have believed it?

It’s like Ground hog day. I’m so thankful to have posters like Rosie, chewbacca and Doodledog to keep posting ???

But if as you believ (or some of you do anyway) transmen are really women what you are in fact saying is the views of some women must be disegarded because they don't happen to comply with your beliefs. That's very dangerous ground to go down. Because if one lot of women are disregarded then another lot can be. And before anyone tries to jump on that you are perfectly within your rights to refer to yourself in any way you wish, to call products or any other service what you wish you don't have the right to insist others are ignored.
Condoms are actually designated as male condoms- for use on a penis and female condoms- for use in a vagina. So actually they are described as for a penis
And health warnings about prostate cancer often use "People with a prostate'

I've not seen any views on Gransnet (or elsewhere) from transmen, so I am unaware of whether their views are disregarded. They seem to keep a low profile, perhaps that is due to their female origins.

trisher I found these as top google results from prostate cancer search. Seems they use the word men quite a lot. No sign of people with a prostate.

From Prostate Cancer Research, the first and largest organisation.

Help us deliver breakthrough medicines and treatments for men with advanced prostate cancer.
Support Us

www.thefocaltherapyclinic.co.uk/?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Generic_Prostate_Cancer_Campaign&gclid=CjwKCAiAg6yRBhBNEiwAeVyL0FhJ2IKQvfYctZ5O0OalUP_cDa8fgk5ojVsJ3wGfLaUkbNSw1PmXOhoCzkwQAvD_BwE

blythehousehospice.org.uk/mikes-story-prostate-cancer-awareness-month/?gclid=CjwKCAiAg6yRBhBNEiwAeVyL0AbfOTp5jkuvxCA7k9KRQTUbYlNlG_WyvRuquXw5DE2lPPtO5S6SYxoCZXkQAvD_BwE

moffitt.org/cancers/prostate-cancer/faqs/what-are-the-five-warning-signs-of-prostate-cancer/

no doubt you won't respond, but it's clear to all that the language censorship is all one way. And as Doodledog says,
I couldn't care less who is making the demands to eradicate women from the language - it is the fact that it is happening with the complicity of anti-feminists and the cowardice of politicians that infuriates me.

Did I misread it or did you say you were leaving trisher?
How am I supposed to know which of your posts are true, which of them are TTP which you like to say and which of them are simply a rebuttal of facts presented by other posters with which you disagree as you are entitled to do even when you are wrong?

trisher

But if as you believ (or some of you do anyway) transmen are really women what you are in fact saying is the views of some women must be disegarded because they don't happen to comply with your beliefs. That's very dangerous ground to go down. Because if one lot of women are disregarded then another lot can be. And before anyone tries to jump on that you are perfectly within your rights to refer to yourself in any way you wish, to call products or any other service what you wish you don't have the right to insist others are ignored.
Condoms are actually designated as male condoms- for use on a penis and female condoms- for use in a vagina. So actually they are described as for a penis
And health warnings about prostate cancer often use "People with a prostate'

This is yet another non sequitur.

The fact that transmen are biologically women, and they can ever change sex, does not mean that anyone's views should be disregarded, nor that any such disregard should come about because they don't happen to comply with my beliefs.

It means that they are biologically female. That's it. No need to worry about dangerous ground, as there isn't any, and no need to be concerned about threats to the rights of others, as nobody's rights were threatened in the first place.

As for 'people with a prostate', IMO that is as bad as 'people with a cervix'. Both are an attempt to muddle thinking by misappropriating the language and pretending that men and women no longer exist as separate entities.

And health warnings about prostate cancer often use "People with a prostate'

And now you're just being silly and really haven't taken the time to check this out have you! ??

From prostatecanceruk.org

MEN, we are with you

Find the 14,000 MEN

Together, we've taken MEN’S health in the UK by the scruff of the neck

So now trisher just explain to me why the word MEN remains on public health campaigns, even though trans men don't have a prostate but, according to you, they are actually still men.

A TV 'ad' for prostate cancer checks has just been on, and it was all about men. The voiceover was 'What a piece of work is a man?' from Hamlet.

It is unequivocally male, from start to finish. No 'people with prostates' for them. Oh no. There they are, noble in reason and infinite in faculty - from the newborn at the start to the old man at the end - males to a man. Men are not being eradicated, or conflated into some sort of 'non-woman' category. Perish the thought.

Just confirms what we've said all along doesn't it Doodledog; it's WOMEN who are, yet again, being told to adjust, make room, change your attitude, change your language, accept what men tell you to accept. Whilst we men carry on precisely as we've always done. Boils my p*