Vagina Museum

Non-binary people could campaign to have an additional gender category added which identified those who wish to make a gender statement.
They have. The UK government refused. Which is why I suggested all the non-binaries might like to help. Many countries accept a non binary identity.

Thanks for the clarification Rosie51
I think I might do a trisher leave now as we are going out for dinner with friends. This sort of leave isn’t real it’s just an expression of my inner feelings.

What does a pronoun have to do with your passport? It's simply a matter of formalising your belief you are non-binary. No pronouns involved. (my bold)
So now you want beliefs listed on your passport? So religion or none, whether you believe the earth is flat or round, do you believe in climate change or not, Covid denier or believer? Wow passports are going to get huge! No I won't be campaigning and as I understood it, it wasn't to be an extra with sex recorded and optional gender, but just the sex classification to record gender preference.
Many countries accept a non binary identity. On this I think Ukraine has it just right. Your birth certificate and passport have to record your birth sex and may not be altered. Things like driving licences etc can record gender preference.

Good points Mollygo if it gets you through security a bit quicker I could consider it ?? Enjoy your evening, and indulge your inner feelings!

This is so good to read I take it then that you will all be writing to your MP and asking that Non-binary be permitted as a recognised part of your ID on your passport?

Why?
I don't understand that as the only information on the passport is name, nationality, date of birth and dates of issue/expiry and passport number.

Callistemon21 my new passport issued mid December 2021 lists number, name, nationality, date of birth, sex M/F, place of birth, and issue and expiry dates. They don't seem interested in any gender identity I may have, nor my sexual orientation, religious beliefs (if any), nor even my marital or working status.

They need to know my sex because a male is not allowed to do a 'pat down' or more intimate examination on a female passenger. And thank goodness for that as I've had more than one pat down at the airport and it was bad enough being done by a woman. I would strongly object to a man however he identified doing it.

Apologies - there is an F

Although my photo could look like an escapee from Alcatraz of any gender.

I'm always getting patted down too.

trisher

Lathyrus

It’s a pity the trans communities don’t think as you do but are active in persecuting women, homosexuals and lesbians.

How contradictory that you ally yourself with them.

I don't believe the majority of the trans community are doing this Lathyrus but if you have some statistics to prove it I'm willing to be put right.

There cannot be any statistics of the type you request because incidences of assault and harassment by transwomen are recorded as incidences carried out by women and vice versa for transmen.

The trans communities will therefore always register at zero for crime of any kind.

There is however much evidence of violence, persecution and harassment by the trans communities towards the groups I spoke of. Cases of lesbians being groomed or threatened into sex with transwomen, of homosexuals harassed on the streets, of natal women being assaulted in what should have been safe spaces.

Some have reached court and have been posted about about on these threads. As we know from Rape cases statistically many more will have been hidden public view.

So effective is the silencing that soon even the public cases will cease to exist. Even if a woman has been raped the fact of the penis will be irrelevant. It will be a crime committed by a woman.

Callistemon21

Apologies - there is an F

Although my photo could look like an escapee from Alcatraz of any gender.

Mine too! I really can't look as old and haggard in real life as I do in that photo

Good points Lathyrus. Offenders in the transwomen category offend in the same way and rates as those who retain their male identity. trisher knows the only time trans status is recorded is when the trans person is the victim, or alleged victim.
When the difference between transwomen and women is to women's advantage it absolutely cannot be recorded, but when it's to the transwoman's advantage then it's alway recorded. Hence the number of rapes recorded by women sporting a penis. Not one rape has ever been recorded as by a transwoman. trisher knows all this but is adept at the disingenuous 'oh show me the stats, then I can be put right'

I look ok because my passport is due for renewal, how I look in reality is what will scare them

Oh and to answer your question trisher I dont need to know whether someone is non binary it is no business of mine, in certain circumstances we need to know peoples sex, if you pretend non binary peopke do not have a sex in a medical setting for example you risk killing them.

Callistemon21

Apologies - there is an F

Although my photo could look like an escapee from Alcatraz of any gender.

Same here Callistemon21 in fact I'm surprised any country lets me in without question

Galaxy

Oh and to answer your question trisher I dont need to know whether someone is non binary it is no business of mine, in certain circumstances we need to know peoples sex, if you pretend non binary peopke do not have a sex in a medical setting for example you risk killing them.

I don't think I have mentioned a medical setting Galaxy just passports, sex would be something only necessary for a medical professional to know. Many believe that inter-sex babies should be designated as non-binary at birth and permitted to choose their gender as an adult.
It is funny how non-binary seems to be something some claim to aspire to but without any commitment to the advancement of non-binary as a recognised gender. Isn't that a bit like claiming to play cricket but not wanting to join a team?
There are many countries where non-binary is recognised on a passport. Some of these reserve the definition for inter-sex people but not all en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_recognition_of_non-binary_gender

Why is it 'funny', trisher? And who has 'aspired' to be non-binary? What has been said is that non-binary is a natural state, unless one buys into the notion that women should 'present' only at one end of a scale, and men 'present as' the other. I can't think of a single person I know who does this. I'm maybe not the best one to ask, though, as I don't divide attitudes, clothing, activities or whatever into exclusively 'male' and 'female', and I don't think many people do. I think most people 'just are', and don't see NB as a recognised gender. I don't see gender as important, particularly if it is about 'feelings' and 'presentation'. These things are personal, which is what I meant (as I think you know) when I said that I am not interested in imposing pronouns (or anything else) on others.

The idea of getting my MP, who has better things to do just now, involved in a campaign to alter my passport (even if I were unhappy with having my sex recorded on there) could not be further from something I would ever do, and I don't know why you would 'take it' that anyone gender-critical would consider it.

I think gender is oppressive, and impacts negaticely in men and women. Why would I be campaigning about it. And no sex is not just important in a medical setting.

Many believe that inter-sex babies should be designated as non-binary at birth and permitted to choose their gender as an adult. there is no intersex, there are two sexes male and female. Lord Winston said it so clearly on QT. As the pioneer for IVF I'd think the most stupid amongst us would bow to his superior knowledge on the subject. Nowadays there just isn't the problem that non typical genitalia presented in the past. Science will be able to ascertain the sex of the baby accurately. What science can't measure is what the child's sexual orientation will be, whether they'll want to conform to any stereotypes associated with that sex, or whether they'll want to transition to a stereotype of the opposite sex.

Not adhering to some arbitrary binary stereotype, doesn't put you in a club of clones who want to be stereotyped. Non binary is not a sex class. Passports record factual sex, they don't record inner feelings. Are you also in favour of furries being able to record their 'gender', what about the other 100s of genders we're repeatedly told exist?

I don't think I have mentioned a medical setting Galaxy just passports, sex would be something only necessary for a medical professional to know. you obviously missed my post about a male not being allowed to carry out a pat down of a female passenger. They know you're female because there's an F marker on your passport. Not a medical setting but very important none the less.

It's funny Rosie51 because it's just another example of how unaccepting and discriminatory some people are and how they pretend to understand others whilst simultaneously denigrating and dismissing them and their requests.

Galaxy it's not the gender that's oppressive it's the attitudes taken towards it. Which is one reason some people identify as non-binary. I'm happy being defined as a woman. I'm not happy with the attitudes taken towards me because I define as a woman. I think many of the posts on this thread illustrate vividly the sort of attutudes that oppress many people whatever gender they define as. It's generally known as prejudice and it is so evident on this thread.

Gender is the ideas trisher. What else is it? Its the stereotypes associated with being a man or a woman.

I don't think I have mentioned a medical setting Galaxy just passports, sex would be something only necessary for a medical professional to know. you obviously missed my post about a male not being allowed to carry out a pat down of a female passenger. They know you're female because there's an F marker on your passport. Not a medical setting but very important none the less.
I wonder how people from the many countries that accept an X on passports cope at airports then? Let's think Oh perhaps someone asks "Do you mind if this person pats you down or would you prefer a man/woman?" Now there's a revolutionary idea!

I think many of the posts on this thread illustrate vividly the sort of attutudes that oppress many people whatever gender they define as. It's generally known as prejudice and it is so evident on this thread.
Perhaps you could give some examples from this thread? If you could do so without being patronising, so much the better.

Do you think I would disagree with offering choice of who pats someòne down. Why on earth would you think that when its the basis of my argument. So women need to be given the choice of that happening by only a member of the female sex. That applies to the employees who carry out the search as well. Based on sex not what someone believes.

So if you are a non binary person of the male sex then a female custom official should have the right to saying no to searching you ( if searching is generally segregated by sex).

Sorry it isn't clear Galaxy but the remark about patting down was for Rosie51 sometimes it gets difficult to manintain two conversations at once.

Galaxy

So if you are a non binary person of the male sex then a female custom official should have the right to saying no to searching you ( if searching is generally segregated by sex).

Isn't that something to be taken up with the custom's official's boss? It might depend on staff numbers of course.