Vagina Museum

As has been said, many think that we are all non-binary,
You do realise don't you Rosie51 that non-binary people are actually people who refuse to be delineated by gender under any circumstances? That they use the pronoun "they" and have non-gender specific names? And they are currently not permitted to put non-binary on their passport.
It is a bit insulting to them to say you think we are all non-binary when plainly we are not.

trisher
Who is spouting rubbish?
Well you for a start. You don’t accept facts, simply replacing them with words that support what you are saying, even when it’s not true or introducing a deviation because you can’t deny the truth.
You are such a patriarchal feminist that you willingly support males who want to override female rights and rather unkindly lump them together with the TW and men who have no such intentions.

Its fine peasblossom.
Actually those who dont want to be in womens spaces (and who therefore understand boundaries, consent etc) are probably the safest men to be in those spaces.
Although of course there is still the issue that to traumatised women in a refuge even lovely men may cause further trauma, its one of the many reasons we segregate by sex.

I have refused to be delienated by gender at all since I was young. Its oppressive and damaging to both men and women. It's why I always challenge the 1950 s nonsense of live like a woman dress like a woman.

trisher

FarNorth

From Maya Forstater's current tribunal.
OD is a female lawyer, Olivia Faith Dobbie. How can she believe what she said - or is it just that lawyers say whatever rubbish is necessary to try to win their case?

^Being pregnant^- well women who can't have children will love that
^vulnerable to rape^- does she not know men get raped?
Who is spouting "rubbish"?

Who rapes men, trisher? (Clue - it's not women)

Also, I think that the vast majority of women who can't have children will understand the context and realise that nobody is being offensive to them.

trisher

^As has been said, many think that we are all non-binary,^
You do realise don't you Rosie51 that non-binary people are actually people who refuse to be delineated by gender under any circumstances? That they use the pronoun "they" and have non-gender specific names? And they are currently not permitted to put non-binary on their passport.
It is a bit insulting to them to say you think we are all non-binary when plainly we are not.

Are you using gender to mean that inner identity some claim to know about themselves, or are you using it as an interchangeable word for sex? Faced with single sex spaces how do non-binary people decide which one to use, I assume they have to acknowledge their sex? I don't identify as woman gender, I am woman sex ie female. Every single one of us only knows how we feel, we cannot possibly know what it feels like to be anyone else of the same or the opposite sex, or no sex.
I wonder what criteria the non-binary Canadian footballer Quinn used to decide to play on the women's team, that binary.

Incidentally, isn't it a bit insulting to the rest of us for them to say they think we adhere to some mythical inner identity stereotype?

I fed up of all this. If a man wants to become a woman he needs to undergo surgery and hormone treatment. Even then his chromosomes and DNA will show that he is a man who has had treatment. No person with a penis and testicles should be in a space that is for women is ladies toilets, women’s prison etc. I’m sorry for being blunt but I’m fed up of all the hogwash about this.

Rosie51

trisher

As has been said, many think that we are all non-binary,
You do realise don't you Rosie51 that non-binary people are actually people who refuse to be delineated by gender under any circumstances? That they use the pronoun "they" and have non-gender specific names? And they are currently not permitted to put non-binary on their passport.
It is a bit insulting to them to say you think we are all non-binary when plainly we are not.

Are you using gender to mean that inner identity some claim to know about themselves, or are you using it as an interchangeable word for sex? Faced with single sex spaces how do non-binary people decide which one to use, I assume they have to acknowledge their sex? I don't identify as woman gender, I am woman sex ie female. Every single one of us only knows how we feel, we cannot possibly know what it feels like to be anyone else of the same or the opposite sex, or no sex.
I wonder what criteria the non-binary Canadian footballer Quinn used to decide to play on the women's team, that binary.

Incidentally, isn't it a bit insulting to the rest of us for them to say they think we adhere to some mythical inner identity stereotype?

Golly now we don't permit anyone to identify as non-binary either?
So let me get this right
Transmen don't count because they are women who say they are men, but we don't permit them to change any wording or anything that has the word woman in it, because they aren't the right sort of woman.
Non-binary people don't exist because some people think it's just to do with dressing a certain way and they must designate themselves one sex or another even though they think it is none of your business.
Tranwomen are mostly men impersonating women in order to access their personal spaces and/or insinuate themselves into achieving something they couldn't as men.
Women are not being oppressed by rich powerful mainly white men but by all of the above.
If I believe all of these things I become a fully signed up gender critical feminist. This is a much better feminist than an intersectional feminist, who believes that all minorities, regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation race or religion suffer at the hands of the patriarchy, and beating the patriarchy means standing up for minority groups, who, like women, have been subjected to oppression and discrimination, that united we stand a chance of winning.
Well I know what I'm sticking with.

It’s a pity the trans communities don’t think as you do but are active in persecuting women, homosexuals and lesbians.

How contradictory that you ally yourself with them.

sigh Some people's reading and comprehension really does need some work.
Please quote the poster who said Women are not being oppressed by rich powerful mainly white men I won't hold my breath because as usual it's been made up.

Your intersectional feminist who is concerned about religious discrimination, how do they square the muslim and jewish women whose lives are even more curtailed because single sex spaces can no longer be guaranteed and it is against their faiths to be in mixed sex spaces? For example those once a week women only (which actually means female only) swimming sessions which a transwoman insists on joining when they could choose any number of other sessions.
What you're promoting is anything which places women back in their place, bottom of the pile, and with their hard won rights taken away bit by bit.

Transwomen arent mostly men, they are all men because you cant change sex.
You seem to have very strict views yourself on who can identify as non binary.
As I have said gender critical feminists have fought endlessly for better healthcare for transmen.

. . . we don't permit them to change any wording or anything that has the word woman in it, because they aren't the right sort of woman.
No, we object to people changing wording because doing so eradicates women. It doesn't matter who does it, and there is no 'right sort of woman' other than in your head, or on the script you keep repeating.

Non-binary people don't exist because some people think it's just to do with dressing a certain way and they must designate themselves one sex or another even though they think it is none of your business.
No, wrong again. Non-binary people definitely exist, and comprise the majority of the population - the ones who don't give a flying one about 'presenting as' one sex or the other, and change their clothing style according to their mood.

Tranwomen are mostly men impersonating women in order to access their personal spaces and/or insinuate themselves into achieving something they couldn't as men.
Yet again, this is wide of the mark. Transwomen are men who would like to be women. Some of them believe that they have been born in the wrong body, and just want to live as though they are members of the opposite sex, harming nobody.

Some of them are autogynephiles, who get sexual pleasure from being mistaken for a woman, but are actually heterosexual men who want to have sex with women, so define as lesbian, but then get annoyed when actual lesbians don't fancy them (because lesbians are attracted to women, not men).

Others, however, are sex offenders who enjoy the power of being able to insinuate themselves into female spaces with no sanctions. Here they can frighten, assault or rape women very easily, as well as touch them intimately and commit acts of voyeurism. It is because of the fact that some men (only some) pose a threat to women that safe spaces exist. The clue is in the word 'safe'.

Oh, and of course there are the ones who want to win medals at sport, particularly when the sport involves superior strength, and when a male physiology is an advantage, which is why there were women's categories in the first place.

Women are not being oppressed by rich powerful mainly white men but by all of the above.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that rich powerful mainly white men can be oppressive (to both women and other men) does not make the fact that other groups can also oppress women less troubling.

Meaningless bollox about intersectional feminism v an invented and inaccurate definition of gender-critical feminism
Not worth the candle, really.

And yes, Lathyrus. Well said.

Lathyrus

It’s a pity the trans communities don’t think as you do but are active in persecuting women, homosexuals and lesbians.

How contradictory that you ally yourself with them.

I don't believe the majority of the trans community are doing this Lathyrus but if you have some statistics to prove it I'm willing to be put right.

Also if you look at male violence for example I am not sure that it is only rich men oppressing women, they are part of it but poor men rape and kill women all the time. So it depends what you see as the main factor in womans oppression, for me its male violence. You could argue that rich white men set up the systems which mean terrible prosecution rates for rape but the actual committing of male violence, nope thats a fairly equal playing field.

No, wrong again. Non-binary people definitely exist, and comprise the majority of the population - the ones who don't give a flying one about 'presenting as' one sex or the other, and change their clothing style according to their mood
This is so good to read I take it then that you will all be writing to your MP and asking that Non-binary be permitted as a recognised part of your ID on your passport?
But isn't it a bit difficult to identify as non-binary and insist only women are entitled to enter women's spaces and be feminists?

Trisher, “Well I know what I'm sticking with.”
Yes trisher, we do know, ??, except when you are TTP and we arent able to recognise any difference.
Thank you *Doodledog for a clear unconvoluted explanation of T’s inaccuracies.*
Lathyrus most of us don’t think all trans are, or have ever been complicit in the persecution of women, homosexuals and lesbians.
The problem is, as we have seen at demonstrations where lesbians or homosexuals are forcibly set upon, and in activities like trying to ‘cancel’ women and hurling insults like bigotry and transphobia, that some transwomen, and sadly, some women who present as trisher does, do knowingly contribute to the persecution of women.

If you are non binary and of the female sex then you are of course welcome in womens spaces. Do you think non binary people dont have a sex.

Galaxy

Also if you look at male violence for example I am not sure that it is only rich men oppressing women, they are part of it but poor men rape and kill women all the time. So it depends what you see as the main factor in womans oppression, for me its male violence. You could argue that rich white men set up the systems which mean terrible prosecution rates for rape but the actual committing of male violence, nope thats a fairly equal playing field.

That's interesting Galaxy but intersectional feminism would tell you it is the result of years of oppression of poor people which parrallels that of the oppression of women. That it results from the patriarchal standards imposed on all society that the strongest and most agressive person always wins and violence and rape is an inevitable part of that society, because of the way boys are educated, that violence is worse in poorer people because physical dominance is taught from an early age as a way to survive. Better off men use other methods to control women (although they may rape and use violence they are better at hiding it).

Galaxy

If you are non binary and of the female sex then you are of course welcome in womens spaces. Do you think non binary people dont have a sex.

But Rosie51 says Non-binary people definitely exist, and comprise the majority of the population
So how will you know?

This is so good to read I take it then that you will all be writing to your MP and asking that Non-binary be permitted as a recognised part of your ID on your passport?

No. I have zero interest in imposing my pronouns or my 'identity' on other people. I have no idea why you would 'take it' that I would be doing anything.

Also, of course I have no difficulty in insisting that only women enter women's spaces. They are based on sex, not the concept of 'gender' that appears to be optional in some world views.

trisher

^No, wrong again. Non-binary people definitely exist, and comprise the majority of the population - the ones who don't give a flying one about 'presenting as' one sex or the other, and change their clothing style according to their mood^
This is so good to read I take it then that you will all be writing to your MP and asking that Non-binary be permitted as a recognised part of your ID on your passport?
But isn't it a bit difficult to identify as non-binary and insist only women are entitled to enter women's spaces and be feminists?

Non binary refers to gender, that 'inner feeling'. Of course passports record sex which is still very much binary, either male or female. Non-binary people could campaign to have an additional gender category added which identified those who wish to make a gender statement. Perhaps you should get a book on basic biology it will make things very clear. There is no third, fourth, sex. Every human is formed from the fusion of a small motile gamete and a large immotile gamete. We are sexed, like every other sexually reproduced organism, according to which gamete we would produce. Even if for any reason we are unable to produce the gamete the pathway is still ascertainable.

But isn't it a bit difficult to identify as non-binary and insist only women are entitled to enter women's spaces and be feminists?
This shows very clearly you really do want to abandon any single sex spaces or services, no matter how much the majority of women (female sex) want. trisher and the patriarchy in perfect unison.

But Rosie51 says Non-binary people definitely exist, and comprise the majority of the population
So how will you know? non-binary is not a third sex. Every non-binary has a sex, and it cannot be changed.

This is so good to read I take it then that you will all be writing to your MP and asking that Non-binary be permitted as a recognised part of your ID on your passport?

No. I have zero interest in imposing my pronouns or my 'identity' on other people. I have no idea why you would 'take it' that I would be doing anything.

What does a pronoun have to do with your passport? It's simply a matter of formalising your belief you are non-binary. No pronouns involved.

A non binary female is female. Why would a female want anything else in their passport? What difference would you want NB to make? Special entrance gates, separate luggage racks, special treatment at customs? If you are non binary how do you dress to make that obvious?

As I mentioned up thread, Quinn is a non-binary Canadian footballer who plays on the women's team. I assume Quinn opted to play for that binary because Quinn has female biology which they seem happy to go with for the purpose of playing. I suppose they could have opted to play on the men's team except they'd never have been selected, lacking advantages like greater lung and heart capacity etc by virtue of having female rather than male biology.