Vagina Museum

Doodledog

No trusher.

I do understand. I would put male rapists in a male prison, yes. I would put them pretty much anywhere before locking them in a cell with a female prisoner. Not because I ‘don’t care about transpeople’ (which is an untrue and personal comment, incidentally - a matter which which might concern Gagajo if she is policing this thread, too) but because I don’t care much about rapists.

But that wasn't the question I didn't ask would you put them in a female prison. You could have put them in a trans wing , but you said a male prison. Who said the transwomen was a rapist? Or do you just assume they are all rapists?

I don't think I have ever said transwomen should be in a male prison. I have said putiing them in a female one was wrong. That isn't the same thing.

When it came up we were talking about male sex offenders and rapists being housed in female jails, and I said, in response to your question about male prisoners threatening suicide, that I would house them in a male prison, regardless of their attempts at blackmail. Which I would.

It’s looking as though the prison service : criminal justice system is realising that putting men who self ID and guilty of sexual offences against women and children, into womens prisons is a bad idea.

Iam64

It’s looking as though the prison service : criminal justice system is realising that putting men who self ID and guilty of sexual offences against women and children, into womens prisons is a bad idea.

That is good news

Don't a lot of prisons have different wings for dangerous prisoners?

I'm not sure because my knowledge of prisons is mostly American TV

They have VioletSky transwomen were just sent to male jails but between 2014 and 2018 there were a significant number of suicides. I think judges reacted to that, but a transgender wing has been opened

Never mind the trauma for the female prisoners, if the sex-offending men get what they want, eh?

trisher

They have VioletSky transwomen were just sent to male jails but between 2014 and 2018 there were a significant number of suicides. I think judges reacted to that, but a transgender wing has been opened

That is good news.

I think sex offenders probably alway née to be kept out of general population, same as murderers. Prison should never be a place crime happens

Funny isn't it though there are people on these threads who insist that trans people have mental health issues and need proper counselling not transition. When they commit a crime that's all forgotten, they're just bad people.

It is very uncomfortable.

For a long time that was said about gay people too.

It's like we don't learn from history.

The saddest part is people being disowned by their own families..

Although I do think in some cases that might be for the best because if a parent doesn't love you for who you are on one level they probably won't on others

VioletSky

trisher

They have VioletSky transwomen were just sent to male jails but between 2014 and 2018 there were a significant number of suicides. I think judges reacted to that, but a transgender wing has been opened

That is good news.

I think sex offenders probably alway née to be kept out of general population, same as murderers. Prison should never be a place crime happens

Agreed. Whether the crime is by the sex offenders or against them, prison should be the punishment, not violence committed there.

I don't see the link with gay people or family support though - in fact I am sick of seeing trans and gay issues conflated. When anyone commits rape they are 'a bad person', as far as I'm concerned.

doodledog I find it really hard not to see the parallels

I remember people being uncomfortable about gay people in toilets and changing rooms

I remember people saying it was a mental illness that needed curing

I remember people pointing at them because they weren't conforming to gender stereotypes

I remember families disowning them

I remember when "gay" and "lesbian" were used as insults the way the word trans has been thrown at people who don't look the way people expect, often wrongly

I'm saying "I remember" but some still sadly hold these views, it's less now but it's not gone yet

Please respect that the gay community does not wish to be compared with the trans communities. Nor have parallels drawn with their respective experiences.

Homosexuality/Lesbianism is an entirely different sexuality and it cannot be conflated in any way with the trans movement.

Especially by those who are heterosexual and are appropriating.

Yes, I remember those things too, but I don't think that on the whole people feel the same about transpeople nowadays. in fact, a lot of people are blind to the issues of TRAs, which, as you know, I see as different from 'ordinary' transpeople (for want of a better word), and are broadly supportive. It is when they realise the damage that organisations like Stonewall have caused that the problems start, which, as I and others keep saying, does more harm than good to the majority of transpeople.

It is very irritating to have one's support of 'ordinary' transpeople presented as a copy of 50 year old attitudes to gay people by people on threads like this. I am not remotely homophobic - far from it - and despite feeling strongly about women's rights being eroded by TRAs, I am not transphobic either.

Well said, Lathyrus. There appears to be very limited understanding of the issues between TRAs and the gay community by many on these threads.

No that's nonsense, they very much know the issues they face in common, the LGBTQIA

LGBTQIA is no longer accepted as a valid grouping. It was a designation that basically covered ‘not heterosexual” and for a while was accepted by communities within it as a means of identifying those who were subject to prejudice because of their non heterosexual sexual identities.

The mutual support that people within that grouping gave to ach other has now broken down and the gay communities ask that you respect that their experiences are individual to their communities and cannot be compared with the other communities within that arbitrary grouping.

Phase do not call it nonsense. That is offensive,

Lathyrus

Please respect that the gay community does not wish to be compared with the trans communities. Nor have parallels drawn with their respective experiences.

Homosexuality/Lesbianism is an entirely different sexuality and it cannot be conflated in any way with the trans movement.

Especially by those who are heterosexual and are appropriating.

Well said indeed Lathyrus and well said Doodledog about the use of 50 year old attitudes on gays when talking about trans.
In 50 years time there may well be recall of trans behaviour towards gays, the demand for ‘cancelling’ people who speak the truth about gametes, the attacks by some trans on vulnerable women and the men who have to claim to be women to succeed in sport.
Hopefully by then, the trans community along with everyone else will be standing up and fighting against those trans who give them a bad name and make life for them more difficult.

You all have heard of Pride Month right? The parades, picnics and events held? The millions and millions of supporters?

Do you know about the stonewall uprising? Raids were happening on gay bars, people arrested, trans people right there and often arrested. Its been LGBTQ+ together from the very beginning of this fight. And they have acheived a lot together

Here is a good link

www.loc.gov/item/today-in-history/june-28/

I'm quite surprised that was even an argument honestly given the history

What word would be less offensive than "nonsense" and I will happily use that as long as it expresses the same thing

Would it be acceptable to say "that makes no sense" which is the same meaning but takes longer to type

Of course the thing we're discouraged from pointing out is that the gay rights movement sought acceptance and fairness for gay people, but without taking anything away from non-gay people. Fairness of opportunity, the right to marry etc, just equal unbiased treatment which is a basic human right. They did not attempt to change language by using outlandish three word phrases where one had sufficed. They didn't attempt to occupy spaces reserved for the opposite sex. They wanted the same rights as everyone else but nothing they wanted impinged on anyone not gay. A gay couple marrying does not affect me at all, an intact male bodied person stripping off in the communal changing room would. Gay men didn't want to cheat by competing against female opposition. If I were a swimmer who'd trained hard for years Lia Thomas, the American college swimmer, would affect me since the women's records are falling like flies. Before Lia learned how to cheat less obviously they beat the second place swimmer by almost 40 seconds! No right that was lobbied for by the gay rights organisation altered or affected non gays in any way at all.

I don't even know what to do with that...

People know far less than I assumed

I think things have moved on considerably in the the past few years.

I’m bringing to your attention the present views and feelings of the gay communities and the way in which they wish to be perceived.
That their sexuality and experiences are individual to them and cannot be compared or conflated with other sexual groupings.

It is not for you to dictate how people are allowed to view themselves or to decide how other human beings should be grouped and labelled against their will.

There is no acceptable way for you to dismiss their wishes as nonsense.

Perhaps you are actually the one who knows less than thought and are not aware in the shift within the gay communities?

Lathyrus

I think things have moved on considerably in the the past few years.

I’m bringing to your attention the present views and feelings of the gay communities and the way in which they wish to be perceived.
That their sexuality and experiences are individual to them and cannot be compared or conflated with other sexual groupings.

It is not for you to dictate how people are allowed to view themselves or to decide how other human beings should be grouped and labelled against their will.

There is no acceptable way for you to dismiss their wishes as nonsense.

What has anything you just said got to do with what I said?

Which was that they have faced many types of discrimination in common.

That was true and still is true and what you are saying to me makes no sense as a reply to that.