Vagina Museum

Smileless2012

I think you are missing the point trisher. This thread is not about the Vagina museum per se, it's about the museum choosing to celebrate trans women on International Women's day. There are another 364 days in the year so it would have been more appropriate to celebrate trans women on another day.

No Smileless2012 I fully understand the point some people are trying to make. It's about applying their beliefs to others and insisting that they have no right to tweet unless it corrresponds with their beliefs. Many of the women organising and running the Vagina museum are intersectional feminists and say so on the website. Intersectional feminists believe transwomen are women and therefore for them tweeting about them on IWD is about spreading the word about discrimination against women. You are quite entited to believe they are wrong about that. You are not entitled to silence them.

Your response to my post shows that you don't understand trisher. International Women's day being for women isn't a belief, it's what the day is for.

Intersectional feminists may believe that transwomen are women, but that is their belief, it is not a fact. If those running the museum desire to spread the word about discrimination against women and choose to include transwomen, that is their choice. But saying they are wrong to do so on International Women's day when there are 364 days for them to do so, is not wanting to silence them, it's wanting them to respect that one day of the year for women.

Women are angry because their fundamental rights and safe spaces are being hijacked by a minority of men. You know this perfectly well VioletSky because it's been explained to you by many posters, many times. They are angry, in this particular instance, because one day out of 365 was set aside to celebrate the achievements and unique qualities that is being a woman. To clarify, that's not a male who wishes he was a woman but a natal woman. There are 364 other days in the year that could be used to celebrate all the achievements and unique qualities that being a trans man or trans woman are. It is yet another example of women being told to move over, make room for men, shut up and accept what you're told and we don't like it.

No one is forcing you, or anyone else to engage in these discussions but you're fully aware of the strength of feeling, utter frustration and anger about this subject and so you may well be best hiding the threads if replies to your posts don't chime with your minority ethos.

Nobody is trying to silence them trisher but we have every right to criticise them for their tweets. As I said in my earlier post maybe we should retitle it International Females Day which will include transmen if they wish. If you haven't noticed it's TRAs and their allies who specialise in the silencing arena. Goodness they've even managed to get the dictionary definition of woman, or I ❤️ J K Rowling removed for hate speech if its on a billboard. That's silencing.

Good posts Smileless2012 and Chewbacca.

I can’t find any response to Violetsky that says she is stupid.

Where is it?

I've been to quite a few IWD events over the years. Many of them were attended by people who were possibly transwomen. I would no more question their right to be there than I would question any other woman and that includes any right wing women like Thatcher. Of course those women never turn up at things like protests or demos for IWD. Perhaps that 's why I sometimes feel I have more in common with transwomen who recognise and acknowledge oppression and don't think it's OK to silence someone simlpy because their views don't comply with some standard you have set.
I asked a question earlier which no one has answered.
Does anyone believe that transwomen do not suffer the same oppression and discrimination that women do? If they do why shouldn't they join natal women in protesting about it?
The tweets were about women who had faced discrimination that's an acceptable subject for IWD.

Seems entirely appropriate to me that the Vagina Museum should celebrate transwomen. After all transwomen really do want a vagina and go through a lot of heartache, trouble, pain and money to get one. Having got one they are pleased with it, and have as much right to celebrate finally being close to what they have felt for many years, often since childbirth, as women assigned female at birth.

trisher transwomen who recognise and acknowledge oppression and don't think it's OK to silence someone simlpy because their views don't comply with some standard you have set

to quote myself
Goodness they've even managed to get the dictionary definition of woman, or I ❤️ J K Rowling removed for hate speech if its on a billboard. That's silencing.
why silence either statement just because those facts don't comply with some standard they have set?

GoldenAge are you unaware that 80% or more of transwomen retain their penis and have no intention of having it inverted into a neovagina? Many want to use their penis for sex with women as they identify as transwomen lesbians.

I’ll answer you trisher.

No I don’t think they suffer the same oppression and discrimination as women.

Perhaps f someone was trans from an early age it would be just the same. But by the time most transition they have had many formative years presenting and being treated as male and this has had a profound effect upon their attitudes and the way they deal with people and situations.

Added to this they have a stronger physique which means they cannot view physical threat and dominance in the same way. They have a greater capacity for self defence.

So no. I don’t think it can be the same at all.

FarNorth

^A really beautiful moment to celebrate how the medical community can create a vagina for someone in the same way they can build or rebuild any other missing or lost appendage.^

Oh, don't be so stupid.

So when exactly do biologically female women get anything that's only for them, do you suggest?

Here

Thanks, I couldn’t see it. ?

Does anyone believe that transwomen do not suffer the same oppression and discrimination that women do?

I'll answer you trisher. No, I do not believe that trans women, or trans men, suffer the same oppression and discrimination that natal women do. I do believe that they suffer oppression and discrimination that is unique to their circumstances, choices and way of life and that should be addressed in a similar way to how other minority groups have gained their voices to be heard. The Black Lives Matter movement have a loud, forceful and positive voice that they've used to raise awareness, demand their rights and be heard by those that have sought to deny them. They have not hijacked other oppressed groups in order to gain their voices. And that's why the post suggesting that trans women are "just another type of woman" was so roundly ridiculed and derided; hijacking one suppressed and oppressed group to launch another subjugates them, creates resentment and quietens the voices of natal women. And little by little, natal women are being quietened.

Why do we need a Virginia museum anyway? Why does it have to be a separate museum . It could be part of a general anatomy museum of which I should imagine there are quite a few.
Anyone past puberty that has one knows where it is and what it is used for, do we really need a museum dedicated to it?
I can't imagine many school visits.

I didn't say it was the same. I said they suffered the same oppression and discrimination. Which actually is probably worse than most because women are now trying to discriminate against them as well. Apparently becuse some of them are bigger and stronger than most women. Are we then to have a size limit for women? Actually I can tell you (not from personal experience) that taller and bigger women have lots of difficulties to put up with anyway and now they aren't considered to be womanly enough.

Ah, so the onus is on me to avoid threads where people are angry rather than on them to not take their frustrations out on others unfairly.

Not sure I agree with that

Poor excuse to use personal insults, make assumptions or barrage someone with comments without waiting for a reply.

This discussion is amongst equals, holding a "majority view" depends on the circles you move in and is meaningless

Rosie51

trisher transwomen who recognise and acknowledge oppression and don't think it's OK to silence someone simlpy because their views don't comply with some standard you have set

to quote myself
Goodness they've even managed to get the dictionary definition of woman, or I ❤️ J K Rowling removed for hate speech if its on a billboard. That's silencing.
why silence either statement just because those facts don't comply with some standard they have set?

GoldenAge are you unaware that 80% or more of transwomen retain their penis and have no intention of having it inverted into a neovagina? Many want to use their penis for sex with women as they identify as transwomen lesbians.

Rosie51 did no one ever teach you two wrongs doen't make a right?
If activists censure women is that any reason for women to censure women?

trisher

Rosie51

trisher transwomen who recognise and acknowledge oppression and don't think it's OK to silence someone simlpy because their views don't comply with some standard you have set

to quote myself
Goodness they've even managed to get the dictionary definition of woman, or I ❤️ J K Rowling removed for hate speech if its on a billboard. That's silencing.
why silence either statement just because those facts don't comply with some standard they have set?

GoldenAge are you unaware that 80% or more of transwomen retain their penis and have no intention of having it inverted into a neovagina? Many want to use their penis for sex with women as they identify as transwomen lesbians.

Rosie51 did no one ever teach you two wrongs doen't make a right?
If activists censure women is that any reason for women to censure women?

For goodness' sake do you never stop with the platitudes? Will you censure or condemn those transwomen who have silenced and continue to dox and threaten women who do not accept their belief akin to a religion that transwomen are identical to women? You're a woman (I presume) and yet you censure the women on here who disagree with your stance all the time.

Ah, so the onus is on me to avoid threads where people are angry rather than on them to not take their frustrations out on others unfairly.

It was you that said that you hide these threads VioletSky, I was simply agreeing with you. Not sure why you're now saying that the "onus" is on you to hide them!

I said they suffered the same oppression and discrimination

No trisher they don't suffer the same oppression and discrimination; they suffer oppression and discrimination that is unique to them. Natal women cannot identify with their oppression because they have never experienced it; they haven't lived it or experienced it just as a trans woman can never identify with the lived experiences of a natal woman. They are completely, utterly and totally separate and need to be addressed, focused and platformed separately.
I have no idea what size limits has to do with anything or the relevance to what it has to do with sex and gender?

Rosie51

trisher

Rosie51

trisher transwomen who recognise and acknowledge oppression and don't think it's OK to silence someone simlpy because their views don't comply with some standard you have set

to quote myself
Goodness they've even managed to get the dictionary definition of woman, or I ❤️ J K Rowling removed for hate speech if its on a billboard. That's silencing.
why silence either statement just because those facts don't comply with some standard they have set?

GoldenAge are you unaware that 80% or more of transwomen retain their penis and have no intention of having it inverted into a neovagina? Many want to use their penis for sex with women as they identify as transwomen lesbians.

Rosie51 did no one ever teach you two wrongs doen't make a right?
If activists censure women is that any reason for women to censure women?

For goodness' sake do you never stop with the platitudes? Will you censure or condemn those transwomen who have silenced and continue to dox and threaten women who do not accept their belief akin to a religion that transwomen are identical to women? You're a woman (I presume) and yet you censure the women on here who disagree with your stance all the time.

Thiis is a discussion Rosie51 I don't agree with your beliefs.I don't believe the same things you do. But I have never told you that you cannot post what you believe or say what you think. I condemn all hate speech and always have done.
I don't think it's OK for anyone to say harmful or discriminatory things about anyone.
I don't think it's OK to tell other women what they should tweet.

Chewbacca

^Ah, so the onus is on me to avoid threads where people are angry rather than on them to not^ take their frustrations out on others unfairly.

It was you that said that you hide these threads VioletSky, I was simply agreeing with you. Not sure why you're now saying that the "onus" is on you to hide them!

Ah, so the onus IS on me

Obviously I don't agree with that as I like discussion, not being berated by angry people

So rather than take the onus off me or agree that it should not be there you have described that actually it IS

Which is why I mentioned it in the first place

Logic and reason

Come home, sit down with a coffee and there are 11 comments quoting me, 1 saying I'm not a feminist and 1 calling me stupid.
I can't find 11 posts saying that Violetsky
Are these personal attacks supposed to be on this thread?

I see some posts that disagree with your viewpoint, but that is something different entirely.

Other posters who find themselves in disagreement still manage to keep battling on, presenting their viewpoints, without assuming it is a personal attack.

Callistimon Read what I said again, the information I was trying to get across is all there.

VioletSky

Callistimon Read what I said again, the information I was trying to get across is all there.

I will just state that I was disagreeing with your post, not attacking you.

As far as I can tell, other posts were not personal attacked either.