Anyone still thinking of voting tory at the next General Election?

You (generic) can still be respectful of the poster when pointing out that something is wrong.

'I think you might be mistaken' is very different from 'Are you actually stupid?', for example.

MaizieD

^I hate to say Volver but the reaction to Truss will not last. They will begin to normalise what they are saying. It will begin to sound possible to some.^

Do you really think so? Do you think that when they put forward their plan for slashing public services, the NHS, pensions, benefits etc. to 'pay for' the tax cuts for the rich everyone is going to say 'Oh, yes, that makes perfect sense'?

In a sense, everything normalises with time. So, we may not agree but may accept this is what happens because they are the people in power.

No, I don't think they will say, "that makes perfect sense". Those are very much your words, not ones I used. As it affects people, they will grumble but few will actually do, or be able to do, anything about it.

I may wish it was different, but I don't think it is.

However, if those in power can bring about a GE then people may not vote for the party doing this to them.

LauraNorderr

My hope is that a wealthier country will pay a decent living wage so that top up by benefit is no longer necessary. The point I was making earlier regarding benefits was not about top ups for low wage earners. It was about those who can work but choose not to being encouraged to work for the sake of their own mental health.

Do you mean:
1. People who are not working, not ill, but are somehow currently entitled to disability benefits,
2. People who have mental health issues, could not currently work and are currently entitled to disability benefits
3. People who have physical issues, could not currently work and are currently entitled to disability benefits
4. People who have mental or physical issues, are currently entitled to disability benefits and, if they lived in an area where there is a shortage of labour so, while still being entitled to disability benefits, might get a job where the employer can adapt to their needs - but don't live in such and area.

No one is asking anyone to respect a point of view they don’t agree with, but to respect that it is given without the need to belittle others.

LauraNorderr

My hope is that a wealthier country will pay a decent living wage so that top up by benefit is no longer necessary. The point I was making earlier regarding benefits was not about top ups for low wage earners. It was about those who can work but choose not to being encouraged to work for the sake of their own mental health.

I'd be really grateful if you could explain how the country is going to get wealthier by abolishing the higher rate of income tax and doing away with the cap on banker's bonuses.

Were is the 'wealth' going to come from? This is, IMO, the really vital question.

And have you ever considered that state spending is as much an engine for growth as investment from private individuals or companies?

LauraNorderr

No one is asking anyone to respect a point of view they don’t agree with, but to respect that it is given without the need to belittle others.

I've no idea who that was replying to, but could you answer my question so that I have some idea what you are saying.

*LauraNorder. DaisyAnne's response was not a belittling one. It was a perfectly reasonable rquest for clarity on what you had written.

You wrote: The point I was making earlier regarding benefits was not about top ups for low wage earners. It was about those who can work but choose not to being encouraged to work for the sake of their own mental health.

DaisyAnne was quite reasonably asking who were these physically and mentally fit people being paid disbility benfits, and what is the evidence from their existence. I worked for 11 years for two different charities helping with benefit applications and I never came across one case of someone applying for a benefit they were not entitled to, still less actually getting it. However it was a common experience to have seriously ill people refused diability benefits, and when we took them to appeal, they were invariably given the benefit. I never had a single client who I took to a tribunal refused the benefit.

I have a close frined who for 30 yeaars was a judge in the Social Security Tribunal sytem, ending as one of their most senior judges and she extimated that over 60% of those who apeealed to the tribunals had the benefit granted as they qualified for it. Now Social Security Tribunals are courts of law, headed by a judge. If they are consistently granting benefits to people who had been refused them evn though they qualified for them, who are all these people who despite being fit and well seem to find it so easy to get disability benefits? it is a reasonable enquiry.

LauraNorderr

No one is asking anyone to respect a point of view they don’t agree with, but to respect that it is given without the need to belittle others.

Agreed.

However, it is fair for others to comment and even 'correct', with evidence to back such, if they know the 'opinion' to be based on false information of facts.

The trouble with social media is that one person asks a question, by the time an answer is given the conversation has moved on. My comment re respect was in answer to Volver earlier. I think I answered, then got distracted before posting so completely out of sync. Apologies all round.
I have done other things since and just returned.
To answer Maizie, my original post was clear on the point that abolishing the 45p rate and not capping bonuses would attract the innovators, entrepreneurs, etc., to the U.K. these wealth creators are vital!to our economy if we are to be a better off society. Yes Maizie I agree with you that the state also has a role to play in investing in our infrastructure to grow our economy.
DaisyAnne, my feeling is that the wealth of the state should of course benefit the disabled with a good living income. My point about benefit capping was aimed only at those who are capable of work but choose not to. We have a huge increase in mental illness and I feel that some of the cause of depression is isolation. Going out to work, feeling that you are contributing to society, mixing with others, having self respect could help many and should be encouraged.
Of course there are issues such as childcare that need to be dealt with, perhaps better run by the state as are schools and after school clubs.
They’re just my views, which is what I thought we were being asked to give. Happy to read the views of others.

To answer Maizie, my original post was clear on the point that abolishing the 45p rate and not capping bonuses would attract the innovators, entrepreneurs, etc., to the U.K. these wealth creators are vital!to our economy if we are to be a better off society. Yes Maizie I agree with you that the state also has a role to play in investing in our infrastructure to grow our economy.

Thanks. LauraNorderr

But

a) Where does the money come from to pay these 'wealth creators' for their goods and services?

b) I'm glad you acknowledge that state expenditure has a role to pay. How would you feel, given the current situation, about further swingeing cuts to state expenditure?

The wealth creators are often innovators, inventors, they start small and create their own wealth, create employment and build factories. Pay taxes and grow their business. They’ll invest where opportunity isn’t capped.
Swingeing cuts in areas of waste has my vote. Empire building within civil service departments for starters.

Also innovators and inventors, researchers and risk takers will come up with answers to our fuel crisis given the right environment and encouragement. Bring it on.

They’re testing a field just by my house with a view to fracking. They haven’t just decide to scrap the ban on fracking imo. They’ve been planning it for ages. I think only people that vote for them should have fracking on their doorstep…

I'm gobsmacked again.

Happy to accommodate Volver. Must be keeping you warm all this gobsmacking. ?

MayBee70

They’re testing a field just by my house with a view to fracking. They haven’t just decide to scrap the ban on fracking imo. They’ve been planning it for ages. I think only people that vote for them should have fracking on their doorstep…

And how exactly would you calculate that?

I respect your posts Laura but I am truly amazed at some of your opinions about this. It's like listening to a sixth former at a school debate. Sorry. ?

Germanshepherdsmum

MayBee70

They’re testing a field just by my house with a view to fracking. They haven’t just decide to scrap the ban on fracking imo. They’ve been planning it for ages. I think only people that vote for them should have fracking on their doorstep…

And how exactly would you calculate that?

Local referendum.

That’s really going to help isn’t it?

LauraNorderr

Also innovators and inventors, researchers and risk takers will come up with answers to our fuel crisis given the right environment and encouragement. Bring it on.

If you really want to know what they are doing and why (or at least more than any of us seem to be aware of) I have put a new thread up which you may find interesting. I have put a link to the programme.

Do watch it through to the end as the whole flavour of Trussanomics is revealed over the discussions during the programme.

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1316108-Common-Ground

Germanshepherdsmum

That’s really going to help isn’t it?

Yes, the commitment is not to do fracking in areas where there is local opposition. Can you think of another way to confirm that?

Casdon

Germanshepherdsmum

That’s really going to help isn’t it?

Yes, the commitment is not to do fracking in areas where there is local opposition. Can you think of another way to confirm that?

Unless of course you have a sensible government like we do in Wales, we won’t be doing it at all so they don’t have to ask us.

Germanshepherdsmum

That’s really going to help isn’t it?

Do you not think it’s wrong that the government have made yet another promise in their manifesto that they had no idea of keeping?

I am sorry lauranorder, but I will press my point. My point about benefit capping was aimed only at those who are capable of work but choose not to.

Who exactly are these people who are capable of work but choose not to? How do they get benefits in the first place? This is the issue you keep skating round. Who has identified them? how many are they.

I am afraid I also think that you are being incredibly naive in thinking that banishing the 45p tax rate will have any effect on entrepreneurial activity in the UK. What really matters is the entrepreneurial environment. Currency stability, stable interest rates, government investment in blue sky research. Brexit drove far more investment away from this country than 5p off the higher rate of tax will ever attract.

It certainly will not attract entrepreneurs to this country. It is peanuts. For someone earng £100,000 above the lower rates and untaxed income, they will save around £5,000 on an income of around £150,000, a nice little extra, but not the kind of money that gets you changing the country of your residence or spurring on your entrepreneurial spirit. Anyway most people on those kinds of salaries, and certainly much higher ones employ clever accountants to manage their income in a way that keeps their tax as low as possible.

I quote again Lauranorder Also innovators and inventors, researchers and risk takers will come up with answers to our fuel crisis given the right environment and encouragement

Yes, but not British innovators and inventors. The government is currently investing billions of £s in huge white elephant nuclear stations that take decades to build when Rolls Royce is developing smaller simpler nuclear generators, based on the engines in nuclear submarines that can be built more quickly and safely.

Innovators and investors came up with a scheme for a series of tidal lagoons and power stations down the south Welsh coast, which could have provided up to 20% or more of our power demand. This area chose itself because these schemes need high tidal rise and fall. Nothing has happened because the government was not prepared to invest in it. The French have had a similar power station on the Rances estuary in Brittany since 1964. president de Gaulle opened it and it is still going strong.

It will take much much more than 5p off tax to attract the entrepreneurial talent we need.

Tax rates have little effect neither will removing the capping bankers bonuses. They are not entrepreneurs, investors, creative thinkers. They merely move money around and take a big cut.

volver

I respect your posts Laura but I am truly amazed at some of your opinions about this. It's like listening to a sixth former at a school debate. Sorry. ?

While unpacking my Tesco order Volver, I was thinking about your comment.
My law professor would start every lecture with ‘assimilate, critical analysis, argument’ he’d then follow up with ‘in the simplest terms that can be understood by any sixth former’. Seems I listened to him, he’d be proud.