Anyone still thinking of voting tory at the next General Election?

I may not agree with LauraNorderr but, as kittylester has said, feeling desperate is no excuse for rudeness on a discussion forum.

It won't change anything.
Posters may think it will but it will not.

Fleurpepper I currently have enough going on without getting embroiled in another one of these threads.

But, I am not prepared to stand to one side while arrogant rudeness abounds.

Your choice entirely.

LauraNorderr

Not everyone is a scientist nor an economist nor even a politician but surely on a chat forum even the simplest of us can voice an opinion. It really is just a chat to me. I may learn something, I may change my views, I may not. Surely differing views are what makes a chat more interesting, apart from cake of course.

Agreed.

Fleurpepper It was the 50-65s who voted for Brexit, not the old people. A study done by the London School of Economics showed that those old enough to have spent their formative years during the war and in its immediate aftermath were far more likely to vote Remain than to vote leave.
blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2019/03/21/not-all-the-over-65s-are-in-favour-of-brexit-britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/

Young people will tell you that 50-65s are old!

Our of respect, I have re-read the last few pages. I have certainly not been rude, nor arrogant. And no-one else either.

Fleurpepper

Your choice entirely.

Thank you!

What would you call that comment?

That isn’t what YouGov says Monica. - I don’t know why there’s a disparity, but YouGov has the over 65s as the highest percentage voting for Brexit.
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
As does Statista
www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/

Why would I call it anything? the truth?

I disagree with everything LauraNorder said. Vehemently. But she is not in court, and she doesn't have to qualify everything she says with evidence and witness statements.

I agree that when people post things that are factually untrue it makes sense for others to correct them. If I said that Berlin was the capital of France it wouldn't be true, but if I said that I thought it was (and if I really thought that ) I wouldn't be lying.

Someone saying that she thinks that people choose not to work and may change their minds if their benefits are cut is saying what she thinks. I think that this is a misinformed and rather unpleasant opinion, but I can't say that someone else doesn't think that. If I did I would be factually incorrect, not the person who said it.

As LauraNorder says, this is a chat. It's not a manifesto. As I said upthread, I don't see it as particularly brave to voice an opinion, whether I expect others to agree with it or not. Nevertheless we all know that there are plenty of people who do feel that - they often say so - and if there is to be debate on political matters then all opinions have to be allowed. Argued with, yes, but not shouted down.

The LSE report was looking at people who spent their formative years during the war. This means people of 75 and over.

The number of people in the 65-70 age group has been inflated in recent years by the baby boom in the immediate post war years, so both could be accurate. The proportion of the age group between 65 and 70 more than out numbers those over 75 so those predominant leave votes in the younger group more than out number the high proportion of Remain voters among those in extreme old age.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Please don't take that literally, LauraNorderr

Casdon

That isn’t what YouGov says Monica. - I don’t know why there’s a disparity, but YouGov has the over 65s as the highest percentage voting for Brexit.
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
As does Statista
www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/

For some reason the stats you mention lump all the over 65s into one category whereas the other age groups are in steps of 6 - 9 years. It seems odd that, given the life expectancy in the U.K. is 81 years approx. that us oldies are in a category that spans 16 years. Had there been a more equal breakdown of age groups 65+ we might have seen a different result.

^ and if there is to be debate on political matters then all opinions have to be allowed. Argued with, yes, but not shouted down.^

Unfortunately, people's concepts of 'shouted down' vary widely.

We'll never resolve that...

M0nica

The LSE report was looking at people who spent their formative years during the war. This means people of 75 and over.

The number of people in the 65-70 age group has been inflated in recent years by the baby boom in the immediate post war years, so both could be accurate. The proportion of the age group between 65 and 70 more than out numbers those over 75 so those predominant leave votes in the younger group more than out number the high proportion of Remain voters among those in extreme old age.

Yes, that makes sense Monica. My parents are in their nineties, and they certainly voted against Brexit because they value unity with Europe very highly.

I'd vote Labour - but the idea of the likely cabinet members puts me right off! There is no good alternative right now but I really wish there was a decent 3rd party to vote for!

kittylester

Feeling desperate is no excuse for rudeness.

Lots of arrogance around too.

It seems that 'rudeness' is in the eye of the beholder, too.

Labour and the Lib Dem’s both favour asset taxes, specifically a mansion tax. If you own a property worth £500,000 and it’s taxed at one per cent you’d pay five grand a year. There’s nothing to say it would only be one per cent.

Additionally, Labour want a council tax reassessment with extra bands. This could result in tens of hundreds or even thousands a year more to pay.

Anyone with a moderate income and a decent house - especially in the south - would lose their home as they couldn’t afford the tax on it.

They might defer payment until death or having to go into a residential home which would mean your equity, and that of your heirs, would be siphoned away from you.

Labour and the left hate ‘the rich’. But we are all ‘the rich’ to them.

So, yes, I will vote for the Conservatives, the party of freedom and independence.

MaizieD

^ and if there is to be debate on political matters then all opinions have to be allowed. Argued with, yes, but not shouted down.^

Unfortunately, people's concepts of 'shouted down' vary widely.

We'll never resolve that...

No, that’s true.

Labour and the left hate ‘the rich’. But we are all ‘the rich’ to them.

Yet another slogan designed to stop people saying what you do not want to hear.

On the other hand, this government really don't believe in equality. I wonder if you will realise that this view of the economy and morality is very, very likely to hit you in the pocket.

“Labour and the left hate ‘the rich’. But we are all ‘the rich’ to them” makes about as much sense as
“Tories and the right hate the poor. But we are all the poor to them “

Truss has done one thing and that is to create clear blue water between the Tories ( if they allow her of course - I think the jury is still out on that) and the other (all) political parties in the U.K.

So the choice when you put your X at the next election will be between neo-liberalism and those other political parties who believe in an economy that is governed by consensus of the whole population, not just “the market”.

It will never be more clear.

I am not a neo-liberalist. Why?

Because history has told me that it has never and will never work.

As a lifelong Conservative voter, I most certainly won't be voting for them next time round. After Boris was finally ditched after presiding over institutionalised deceit and blatant self-interest, I could be forgiven for thinking that things couldn't possibly get ant worse. How wrong I was. After just 3 weeks in power, Truss and Kwarteng have trashed the economy, despite warnings that the car crash was coming. I may have felt different if Sunak had been voted in.. the M.P.'s choice, and someone who at least understands economics. Depressing prospect, as I can't see Labour improving matters either. I may end up voting Green.

Tbh it isn’t a lack of understanding, the neo-liberalists understand very well, it is just that they are ideologically opposed to what they are framing as orthodoxy.

So they completely reject the idea that a state should stand as the arbiter between the market and the community as a whole, believing that the individual will and can pursue “happiness” without state interference.

The “orthodox” economics as Truss and cohorts are trying to frame it believe that the market is too powerful to be allowed to operate without hinderance. So rules to ensure things like unadulterated food, safe products, protecting labour and the natural environment from exploitation must exist in order to have a reasonable quality of life and a civilised society.

All developed capitalist societies are run with “orthodox” economics.

Truss is pursuing the great experiment

Lilyflower

Labour and the Lib Dem’s both favour asset taxes, specifically a mansion tax. If you own a property worth £500,000 and it’s taxed at one per cent you’d pay five grand a year. There’s nothing to say it would only be one per cent.

Additionally, Labour want a council tax reassessment with extra bands. This could result in tens of hundreds or even thousands a year more to pay.

Anyone with a moderate income and a decent house - especially in the south - would lose their home as they couldn’t afford the tax on it.

They might defer payment until death or having to go into a residential home which would mean your equity, and that of your heirs, would be siphoned away from you.

Labour and the left hate ‘the rich’. But we are all ‘the rich’ to them.

So, yes, I will vote for the Conservatives, the party of freedom and independence.

Odd thing to say. Think Kier Starmer is pretty wealthy himself.

I'm what I regard as comfortable, financially, and I'm Labour.

Don't think you understand Labour at all!