The case against ID cards

Looking in my purse, I have several bank cards, a driving licence, a bus pass, a train pass and an AA card. And a membership card for the NTS.

None of those are compulsory. I could throw them all out tomorrow and that is perfectly legal. I'd have to give up driving and put my vast fortune in biscuit tins under the bed, but that would be my choice, it wouldn't be enforced on me.

If I have no choice about carrying a card that the government tells me is compulsory, that is not acceptable to me. I'm not suggesting that they will do that tomorrow. But if and when any government of any colour decides it a good thing and starts putting things in place to make that a law, we need to know in advance what the implications are. Which means discussing it now.

Baggs

I suspect one'd still have to be on the electoral register, VSky.

I would certainly hope so. I guess it depends what ID is going to be required to allow people to vote. There are people who don't have a passport or driving licence. Some (eg students or people in hostels and HMOs) are on the electoral register, but don't receive individual utility or CT bills, so proving ID can be a problem.

What if one card could be all those things Volver

I'd definitely lose it though

Greyduster

And we’ve learned absolutely nothing since then, Maisie? I don’t think so! How do those of you who are railing against this, and so much other stuff, manage to live your life from day to day with all these conspiracy theories taking up spaces in your heads?

Well some of us have to worry about the rest of you who don't seem to mind having your rights taken away.

It's a tough job but somebody has to do it.

As for learning about things over the past few years, I suppose it's completely unlikely that we would ever have a government who thinks it's a good thing to limit the movements of people who attended demos they didn't like? That would only happen in the films, wouldn't it?

(Sarcasm alert)

volver You could also throw away your birth certificate and utility bills along with your driving licence, but you'd find it quite difficult to prove your ID, if you applied for a job, wanted to open a bank account or apply for benefits or wanted to rent a property. A single ID card could make it easier to do those things without having to send off a pack of ID documents.

I agree that I'd want to know what its purpose would be and I'd want the government to be accountable for future uses, but not having an ID card doesn't deter the government from introducing draconian laws anyway.

Oldwoman70

I think almost half of the member states of the EU have compulsory ID cards - I haven't read of people being regularly stopped and asked for ID in those countries or of demonstrations against them - seems those who have experience of having to carry them do not object.

Having inadvertently strayed too near a demonstration, I’ve been asked for identification whilst in Germany, but my passport was sufficient and I carry it with me when abroad. Might have been difficult otherwise because my bank cards don’t have a picture.

growstuff

volver You could also throw away your birth certificate and utility bills along with your driving licence, but you'd find it quite difficult to prove your ID, if you applied for a job, wanted to open a bank account or apply for benefits or wanted to rent a property. A single ID card could make it easier to do those things without having to send off a pack of ID documents.

I agree that I'd want to know what its purpose would be and I'd want the government to be accountable for future uses, but not having an ID card doesn't deter the government from introducing draconian laws anyway.

But having an ID card would make it easier for them.

I don't agree with handing over my ability to have the kind of identity document I feel happy with just to make my life a bit easier when I have to open a bank account.

It seems to me we have lost all sense of proportion here.

All our benefits are already linked to our National Insurance number. This worrying about ID cards seems like a hangover from old wartime propaganda.

Definitely don't like the idea that it could stop peaceful demonstration.

Especially if people's movements could be a matter of public record and that affected things like employment

People could be discriminated against

People are already discriminated against!

It would be really nice if people stopped trying to say that worrying about ID cards is some kind of paranoia, based on wartime norms and watching dystopian films.

Some hope.

You can't even join a library if you don't have ID.

"You will need to bring some identification with your name and address on it, such as a driving licence, bank statement or recent utility bill."

Some people don't have any of those. What would be wrong with an ID card like the current citizen cards, which young people can get?

vegansrock

I can’t see why anyone would object to voter ID- they ask your name and address and tick you off- this could all be done more efficiently and stop people nipping over to another polling station and give someone else’s name and address( it has been known) .
I think the experiences of those who’ve lived in countries with ID currently haven’t had bad experiences.

people nipping over to another polling station and give someone else’s name and address( it has been known)

Has it vegansrock? Has it? Got any examples of that happening?

Your sister's hairdresser's cousin telling you about how it happened to their daughter isn't proof.

Blossoming

Are there any countries that do have this sort of identity card?

Yes, most do have.

Interesting to read other people’s views on the subject although I can’t really understand why so many are against ID cards.

I’ve had one for over forty years as I live in Malta, and have never been randomly asked for it. It is convenient, free and can be used instead of a passport for travel within the EU.

I don’t know why any law abiding citizen should object to carrying one.

VioletSky

Definitely don't like the idea that it could stop peaceful demonstration.

Especially if people's movements could be a matter of public record and that affected things like employment

People could be discriminated against

But people are already being stopped from demonstrating peacefully. Having an ID card doesn't make any difference to that.

I don’t know why any law abiding citizen should object to carrying one.

Because of comments like that Bellasnana. Because of comments like that 😟

It would be really nice if some people really gave some up to date thinking about ID. Biometric data is sure to come in sooner or later. Knee jerk anti everything reactions would be outdated soon enough.

growstuff

volver You could also throw away your birth certificate and utility bills along with your driving licence, but you'd find it quite difficult to prove your ID, if you applied for a job, wanted to open a bank account or apply for benefits or wanted to rent a property. A single ID card could make it easier to do those things without having to send off a pack of ID documents.

I agree that I'd want to know what its purpose would be and I'd want the government to be accountable for future uses, but not having an ID card doesn't deter the government from introducing draconian laws anyway.

Yes, this is what I was going to say.

The UK is almost unique on this point. I don't know of any EU country, for instance, where identitiy cards have not been the norm for a very long time, and are now biometric.

What the Law should do- is limit what info can be put on card and how it is used. But, and there is a bit BUT - I do not trust this current Government, hell bent on privatising everything, to not abuse this system. As the NHS is being privatised- and with private health insurance their aim- anyone with pre-exisiting conditions would become victims of such a system, same for Life Insurance- although this is already the case as GPs have to disclose any such when you apply.

Like so many things, it is not an easy question at all.

Aveline

It would be really nice if some people really gave some up to date thinking about ID. Biometric data is sure to come in sooner or later. Knee jerk anti everything reactions would be outdated soon enough.

Biometrics came in years ago. I worked in a company that was developing it for banks 3 decades ago.

Try to keep up to date.

I don't know what I think about this, I've never really given it a lot of thought before. I use my driving licence, occasionally a passport as a form of identification, I realise not everybody has either of those.

I will follow the thread and listen to both sides of the argument and perhaps give the matter some more thought. I can see that sometimes, what we assume to be straight forward and harmless could in fact have sinister connotations, which in a nutshell is I dunno!

A rogue government doesn’t need ID cards to carry out dastardly deeds

What it does need is collusion on every level, Police, Judiciary, civil servants and the majority of the populace to go along with their demands.

Having an ID card or not what not stop any Government from nefarious intentions.

I don’t know why any law abiding citizen should object to carrying one.

Because laws can change? It's an overused example, but who, in 1920, would have thought that the restrictions on movement for many groups all over Europe would have been in place 20 years later? And we all know where that ended.

I don't buy the 'if you don't do anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about' argument, really. It can be a bit smug (I am an intrinsically good person and the UK is an intrinsically good place), and takes no account of the way these things can turn on a sixpence. I still feel that there is now so much information on us that a card would make very little difference. If anyone is in doubt, watch an episode of Hunted.

There maybe not as much evidence of voter fraud in the UK as there could be because it is so easy to do.

If everyone had universal ID then there wouldn't be groups disadvantaged by not having a passport etc