Biological Male Wins Beauty Pageant in USA

volver

Oh my goodness, the predictability.... 🤣

What are you finding predictable?

I'm still struggling to see where your neutral ground can actually fit. Clearly there are trans 'allies' on one side, and feminists on the other. That is to be expected. There will always be 'don't care - I'm not interested in politics' viewpoints too (if you can call that a point of view), but that's not neutrality so much as apathy. Where is the middle ground here?

volver

Oh my goodness, the predictability.... 🤣

Of you two yes, but do you two only think cheating is right when it’s something you approve of?
Or won’t you answer that?

VioletSky

Oh hi Volver

I think it's great, she actually won for plus size women too.

I hope no one shakes her beauty

This ideal that women must look a certain way, to be considered beautiful has strong roots in sexism and its sad to see sexism perpetuated by women

Intersectional feminists understand this hence the intersectional

I'm not great at flouncing, more of a very self conscious shuffle away

Nice try, VS, but no cigar. The fact that beauty pageants are inherently sexist and therefore undesirable has already been covered, and it has been pointed out that despite this it is still inherently unfair for a man to use them as a vehicle to take a scholarship that was meant for a young woman. It was intended for young women between 17 and 24 so that she could get an educational break - how would you feel if a 70 year old with a PhD won it?

She hasn't won a prize for plus size women. She's not a woman. She hasn't won a prize for plus size trans women either because it wasn't a plus size contest.

If I entered a middle aged lady overweight contest where the prize was for access to the private menopause clinic for 3 years and I was beaten by Dave with a beer belly in lipstick. Would that be fair?

It's such a shame that all of the other contestants didn't refuse to take park.

If the winner had been a 70 year old transwoman with a PHD maybe age and educational success wouldn't matter Doodledog.

What a thought JaneJudge!

Doodledog

volver

Oh my goodness, the predictability.... 🤣

What are you finding predictable?

I'm still struggling to see where your neutral ground can actually fit. Clearly there are trans 'allies' on one side, and feminists on the other. That is to be expected. There will always be 'don't care - I'm not interested in politics' viewpoints too (if you can call that a point of view), but that's not neutrality so much as apathy. Where is the middle ground here?

I will answer that Doodledog because I think it's important and you raise an important question.

What is predictable is that most of the world just don't care. Now I know that if there are issues that we are very invested in, we expect everybody to care as much as we do. I have many such issues in my life.

But the predictable part is the outrage that is exhibited by posters who are very invested in this, and the "othering" of people who either have a different point of view or just don't care. The absolute nastiness that is shown towards people who you (plural) think are doing something you (plural) don't approve of.

I vacillate between the two points of view about this; but let me tell you, the absolute hostility to people who are on "the other side" makes it very difficult to form a valid opinion. One can be a feminist and a trans ally. If you think otherwise, then I will never be "on your side" because you are significantly mistaken.

The touchstone really is would a female with the same appearance have won.

If the answer is no, then clearly the decision was sexist in favouring a male.

I agree the Ladyboys can be very beautiful, however they don’t purport to be anything other than men in women’s clothes and make-up. I find that quite acceptable.

I assume those that support a man entering and winning in a female category because he 'identifies' as a woman, would also support Rachel Dolezal entering and winning a category for black women, as she felt like a black woman. She 'passed' so well she was president of the NAACP chapter in Spokane, Washington.

Absolutely Lathyrus.

volver

Oh my goodness, the predictability.... 🤣

What I said applies the other way round too - how females judge male beauty. Obviously the criteria are not exactly the same (men don't get pregnant for a start) but a fit and healthy looking male simply is more attractive to most people and the fundamental reasons are about potential reproductive success and survival.

Kindness and other such wonderful traits matter too on both sides, obviously, but good-looking physicality has not changed in thousands of years and is unlikely to.

a young man dressed as a woman to gain a scholarship offered to young women
it's unfair
it isn't transphobic, it's unfair and unethical

considering all the stuff going on with the first amendment this is actually a massive distraction and actually quite dangerous

Lathyrus

The touchstone really is would a female with the same appearance have won.

If the answer is no, then clearly the decision was sexist in favouring a male.

Had woman with the build and figure of Brian applied to enter the contest she would quite likely have been discouraged from doing so. However, I am disgusted at women having to meet some sort of societal standard of "beauty" in an effort to fund their education. Hopefully this whole pantomime will put an end to the whole outdated beauty contest nonsense.

Exactly Lathyrus.

Why restrict it to Rachel Dolezal Rosie51?

Going by the reasoning shown here why couldn't any white person enter and win an award intended for a black person?

Good point FarNorth as long as the entrant 'identifies' as the category it should be open season.

Volver dear, One can be a feminist and a trans ally. If you think otherwise, then I will never be "on your side" because you are significantly mistaken.
“On your side” -playground talk again. Did anyone ask you to be so?

Define trans ally.

If you ever read any of the trans threads you would see no lack of support for any and all of those trans who do not wish to cheat or take female places in all the places so often mentioned.
No lack of sympathy for those trans whose peaceful lives have been damaged by the change of attitude caused by the actions of the cheats, those exhibiting derogatory behaviour towards females, those denying female rights.
That behaviour and the acceptance and praise of that behaviour by some trans and TRA, the violence against females who state biological truths and ask for protection for females from those trans exhibiting that behaviour and the TRA or whatever title they choose to use, who support that behaviour either actively, or by excusing it or refusing to condemn it is quite appalling.

That’s my valid opinion. I don’t need you to be on my side to make it valid and truthful.

What is predictable is that most of the world just don't care. Now I know that if there are issues that we are very invested in, we expect everybody to care as much as we do. I have many such issues in my life.
Yes, it is something of a first world issue. In most of the world people 'feeling that they are in the wrong body' would be considered unbelievably self-indulgent. All the same, where gender politics is an issue, I disagree that most people don't care. A few years ago I suspect that most people hadn't given the matter much thought, or if they had were broadly tolerant, as the only transpeople they knew were just going about 'living as' the opposite sex and not trampling all over women's rights. Since the Olympics, however, when the trans lobby over-reached, more people have realised the implications, even if they haven't experienced the impact of gender politics first hand yet, which more and more women are, or if not experiencing it themselves, are seeing their daughters and grand-daughters being impacted by it.

But the predictable part is the outrage that is exhibited by posters who are very invested in this, and the "othering" of people who either have a different point of view or just don't care. The absolute nastiness that is shown towards people who you (plural) think are doing something you (plural) don't approve of.
I don't know about 'absolute nastiness'. I can see understandable outrage at someone who is clearly thumbing his nose at women. If the winner had been someone living as a woman (whatever that means), who had taken steps towards transitioning, or even entered with a female name, then 'nastiness' might have been toned down to disapproval and outrage at the fact that the entry was allowed. As it is, there is no doubt as to the message from Brian and from those who voted for him to win, and I think that it is outrageous. I know that women are often encouraged to 'be kind' and not speak out if anyone might get upset, but I don't buy that, I'm afraid.

I vacillate between the two points of view about this; but let me tell you, the absolute hostility to people who are on "the other side" makes it very difficult to form a valid opinion. One can be a feminist and a trans ally. If you think otherwise, then I will never be "on your side" because you are significantly mistaken.
I'm not recruiting . I used the term 'trans ally' as, despite having asked several times for a term that is mutually acceptable (ie doesn't position the gender critical as 'unkind' or intolerant) there hasn't been a sensible suggestion. 'Intersectional feminist' was mentioned recently, but again, that suggests that the GC viewpoint is that only white middle class women matter, which is not true. I am not 'absolutely hostile' to anyone who discusses without condescension, unfounded accusations and/or clumsy attempts at rhetorical sophistry. Like anyone but a saint I get rattled when my words are twisted and I am accused of phobias and prejudices that I don't hold, and will fight back, but I don't initiate hostility. (I believe that to be true of many others who share my opinions too, but I am speaking only for myself here, as opposed to claiming that I am the only one to do or not do any of the above).

I don't know about 'absolute nastiness'.
I quote…

To be fair you can see why she won the contest.
He must have a stunning personality...
I did expect to see and attractive person, so very disappointed.
I don’t agree with beauty contests but I have no idea why that person won. That person is not beautiful. His Mummy thinks he is😬
Flounces again!
It is blatantly obvious that it's a fix.
There seem to be more flounces on GN than the Strictly dance floor 💃💃💃
Do you mean they could work as protitutes?(sic)

Not nasty? I think they are. Childish. Malicious.

To be fair, judgeJane Brian does have a beer belly and wears lipstick.

More madness.

reduxx.info/norwegian-man-now-identifies-as-a-disabled-woman-uses-wheelchair-almost-full-time/

The comment about nastiness was one small part of my post, volver, and is a matter of judgement, really. Some of those things were less than 'kind', but as I said, I don't buy the idea that women should either shut up or be agreeable.

Taken out of context in a list like that, the comments may seem hostile, but given that the result clearly was a fix, they are (IMO) fairly innocuous. Are you honestly saying that Brian was a deserved winner and more representative of 'the ideal American woman' than the other contestants? Seriously?

MerylStreep

More madness.

reduxx.info/norwegian-man-now-identifies-as-a-disabled-woman-uses-wheelchair-almost-full-time/

So would he be able to compete in the Paralympics?

If men can compete in women's Olympic events I can't see why he couldn't compete in Paralympic women's wheelchair events.