JK Rowling putting her money where her mouth is

Transwomen are of the Male sex. This isnt treating them as less it's just acknowledging reality.

No not as anything less. But different nonetheless. If we believe that every one is an individual with individual needs, we have to respect that the individual needs of a trans person are different than a biological man or woman and vice versa.

It's not a competition, at least it shouldnt be. Humans are humans, whatever gender they are and we should all have equal rights and choices about who we spend time with or not. For me it's not about fear, but about the choice- and I choose to be with my fellow women, for so many reasons.

I belong to a group of 3 million intersectional feminists

I've never seen GC feminists in those numbers

Join the light side

OnwardandUpward

No not as anything less. But different nonetheless. If we believe that every one is an individual with individual needs, we have to respect that the individual needs of a trans person are different than a biological man or woman and vice versa.

It's not a competition, at least it shouldnt be. Humans are humans, whatever gender they are and we should all have equal rights and choices about who we spend time with or not. For me it's not about fear, but about the choice- and I choose to be with my fellow women, for so many reasons.

I like what you write: one takes as one finds, however, and one of my friends is a transwoman, because I happened to meet her. I prefer her to some other women I meet: so I can't generalise.

The thing is, I believe I am on the light side so each to their own, I suppose.

Thankyou Wyllow3, it's not the gender it's the person in friendships. I've experienced similar.

It's a beautiful group, it really is. People are missing out on just how incredible women can be when we truly understand and support each other

There are also trans women in it but that shouldn't put anyone off because, we all think trans people are valid right?

I have no idea what that even means.
I think it's my atheism I find it all quite religious in tone.

There are natal women who never have periods, never become pregnant, don't know they've gone through the menopause, are they to be considered as not proper women? I will never know the trials a black woman goes through but I accept she suffers more abuse and more discrimination than I ever will. And I support her as a woman. Just as I will never know the trials and inequalities a transwoman will go through, but I will support her as a woman. That's what intersectional feminism does. It recognises that there are differences between women, that some are more privileged than others, but that we all suffer the discrimination that patriachal society has placed upon us, and uses to divide us, and that we stand together to oppose discrimination and the oppression of minority groups, because feminism looks for other ways to solve problems and one of those ways is through discussion and understanding, not condemnation and discrimination. I don't want to replace a patriachal system with a matriachal one which operates with the same parameters and injustice I want to replace it with a feminist agenda that supports equality and justice for everyone.

People often fear what they don't understand

That's why we have these threads

It's just stories, successes, struggles etc

There are no great bearded sky dwelling ones, all women equal to each other while understanding we aren't to society

I am not frightened. It's not my scene.

VioletSky

It's a beautiful group, it really is. People are missing out on just how incredible women can be when we truly understand and support each other

There are also trans women in it but that shouldn't put anyone off because, we all think trans people are valid right?

Of course transgender people are valid, who has ever said otherwise? But transwomen are different to women or else they wouldn't be transwomen would they? Every attempt to use DSDs as proof of the 'gene difference' of transpeople is doomed to fail, and according to my friend who has a DSD 'bloody insulting, how dare they!' Translucent posted on twitter that they were going to publish a paper tomorrow that 'proved there are tests that show transgender people have biological differences' and therefore confirmed the science that transgender people are born, it's not a choice or fetish. The outcry from 'transgender people' that this would be harmful because many might 'fail' the test has caused Translucent to decide not to publish the paper that 'proves' this biological marker because they don't wish to alarm or distress trans people. Now which is it? Is there a test that proves transgender identity or isn't there? Why are some so scared they won't pass this wonderful discovery of science? Why are some now questioning the science that can prove their transgenderness? It's a mystery.

I am not frightened either. I appreciate having my choices respected as I respect others choices. Not everything is something I choose to do.

Choices are important to me.

I am most certainly not going to join a group that won't respect my life choices.

Wyllow3

*Doodledog*, I feel it depends so much on individuals. We keep talking about "vulnerable women" as if all one group, no differences.

It assumes for example that all vulnerable women don't want anything to do with all men?

No, there are many differences. All of us are vulnerable at some times and not at others. When we've just given birth, when we are naked, when we are ill, are just three examples.

We usually go on to get better, we can put clothes on, and our bodies will heal after childbirth, but during those times, in hospital, in a changing room, many women won't want men around. Not all men - we might actively want our husband, our sons, our male friends, and male doctors and nurses. Maybe even a male first aider if there is an accident in the pool's changing room. But the point is that we know who they are, and that they are there legitimately.

Of course some transwomen would also be there with innocent purpose, but the fact is that allowing self-identifying transwomen in open the door to all men, and some of them will have nefarious intent. There is also the issue of religions which disallow women from being undressed in front of men other than their husbands.

We can be psychologically vulnerable too, eg if we've been raped, and not want to be near or to speak to a male until we are ready. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Does it to you?

Trying to say that people are fearful just because they believe differently than you doesn't ring true Violetsky

We each have the right to believe what we choose to believe and think our own thoughts about those things. Its a right. To bow down and join a group just to fit in would be bowing down to fear. To continue to believe and act on my own thoughts is not .

I'd like to see this new discovery.

I can understand why the idea is frightening actually, any test is frightening and fear of failing is natural

I also fear a test may lead to abortions

But I'd like to know anyway, not to prove a point or to be right, just genuine curiosity and interest

I'm not a fan of being told what to think. I prefer to come to my own conclusions and don't follow a crowd. It doesn't bother me at all if I'm unpopular as I'd much rather be true to myself and what I believe.

If someone labors the point with me, I am more likely to go my own way even more. I have always done my own research and made my own mind up and it won't change. I don't join groups that tell me what to think. I treasure my freedom of choice and right to make my own mind up.

Glorianny There are natal women who never have periods, never become pregnant, don't know they've gone through the menopause, are they to be considered as not proper women? how many more times does it have to be said that women whose reproductive system does not function as it should are still women? A human born with eyes that don't see is not any less a human, just someone who cannot see whom we call blind, as is my husband's cousin. A human born with legs that don't work is still a human and doesn't negate that humans are bipedal, it just confirms this individual is paraplegic. That you would attempt to use the mis-functioning of biological process to exclude someone from their biological category is really telling. A transwoman doesn't have non functioning female biology, they have male biology that likely functions perfectly well. There is no comparison, and it's insulting of you to equate them. Body dysmorphia must be an awful burden and deserves every sympathy and care to alleviate it as much as is possible. To suggest every transwoman suffers body dysmorphia is naive beyond words.

Womens rights ARE Human Rights

Mens and Trans are too.

According to the Human Rights Act we all have the right to express ourselves freely and hold our own opinions – even if our views are unpopular or could upset or offend others.

That's why I said "Each to their own".

Erm

OK

I'm just talking about something that matters to me, I don't mind if people don't join or look into intersectional feminism

It's just feminism that understand that different demographics of women face different issues

Actually never mind, just realised we probably aren't friends any more

In the case of physical rape yes am inclined to agree doodledog, tho not sure where that leaves cases of violent rape on transwomen by men, where are they supposed to go.

VioletSky

I'd like to see this new discovery.

I can understand why the idea is frightening actually, any test is frightening and fear of failing is natural

I also fear a test may lead to abortions

But I'd like to know anyway, not to prove a point or to be right, just genuine curiosity and interest

Well none of us will see this wonderful 'science' because Translucent have decided not to publish. You'd have thought something so groundbreaking and definitive would be published in a heartbeat wouldn't you? Something that would prove and validate the transgender claim, why on earth would you bury it? It's almost like they realise their 'proof' would disadvantage more transgender people than it would help. Hmmmm.

I am perfectly able to accept others differences and be friends with them, if they want to be friends and accept that we think different things.

After all, no one is a robot and we all want human rights to be able to be who we are.

Wyllow3

In the case of physical rape yes am inclined to agree doodledog, tho not sure where that leaves cases of violent rape on transwomen by men, where are they supposed to go.

I think in that case, the only thing is to have all trans spaces to keep the trans people safe from men. In the case of the prison system this could be a good thing. They could then get specialised support and have a safe space of their own.