JK Rowling putting her money where her mouth is

Galaxy

We dont inflict those views on you Glorianny, you can believe whatever you like of course. However when you are talking about single sex spaces we are talking about consent, so the fact that you are happy to share spaces with men is neither here or there, you cant make other women share spaces with men, therefore the spaces have to be single sex. Obviously no one is stopping you using mixed sex facilities.

I don't want to inflict my views on anyone. The law is clear. The law should be applied.
And I didn't say I was happy I said intersectional feminists are happy.I'm not the only one you know, there are a lot of us.
I just don't see why someone who is transphobic should be allowed to dictate who has access to spaces, anymore than I would permit someone who is racist to decide who has access.

Read it. by and large, I agree

"But it’s like opening a whites-only orphanage; what, would you rather there not be an orphanage at all? What did orphans ever do to you?

And from what I’ve seen previously, it’s not massively surprising. Did we really think that the woman who is comfortable dropping the “T” from “LGBT” would welcome trans applicants with open arms? "

However I don't think in anyway it should be closed down. there is an 18 month waiting list for help from the Edinburgh Centre: its complementary: its too late of course to say, it shouldn't be a political football:

and all sides are at fault for making it so.

The confusion has arisen because of the LGBT conflation.

Research has shown that a specific chromosome variation is found in significant numbers of gay males.
That’s the extent of what has been discovered.

It s an error, deliberate or just not understanding, to then transfer that finding to LBT.

It also illustrates perfectly why we have to stop conflating completely different groups into one political designation.

It makes nonsense of medical and scientific research.

Sorry the discussion has moved on.

That was about the Xx XY variations

Single sex spaces are enshrined in the equality act. Are we now comparing the equality act to racism. Beyond bizarre.

Glorianny

Galaxy

We dont inflict those views on you Glorianny, you can believe whatever you like of course. However when you are talking about single sex spaces we are talking about consent, so the fact that you are happy to share spaces with men is neither here or there, you cant make other women share spaces with men, therefore the spaces have to be single sex. Obviously no one is stopping you using mixed sex facilities.

I don't want to inflict my views on anyone. The law is clear. The law should be applied.
And I didn't say I was happy I said intersectional feminists are happy.I'm not the only one you know, there are a lot of us.
I just don't see why someone who is transphobic should be allowed to dictate who has access to spaces, anymore than I would permit someone who is racist to decide who has access.

Would you permit black people to have their own help centres.

I worked in the Afro-Caribbean Saturday school for many years.

Would you put a stop to that?

TIM lie about their sex. Some posters on here believe that lie.
Some posters (in particular G) believe that if they and their group don’t mind males misappropriating female rights then that makes it OK for all men to misappropriate female spaces and tough on those females who are not happy about males doing that.

And some posters perpetuate biologically incorrect lies e.g.

Trans men are men

All posters know-even though they may not admit it, that the rise in transphobia is mainly due to the actions of certain TIM and TRA who have behaved in a manner designed to show contempt for females and disregard for their safety.
Before those actions, many people were not interested in whether males wanted to live their lives as women or females wanted to live their lives as men.

"Before those actions, many people were not interested in whether males wanted to live their lives as women or females wanted to live their lives as men."

TBH, I think a lot of people simply didn't ever think about it. Or even know about it except as a long distant "oh, a few of "Them".

I realised this at a L Party meeting, where the issue was raised for discussion. Most of the people there really hadn't a clue, some equated it with being gay.

Its my view that since most violence is by men against women in our society, there is bound to be a small group who use current issues to join in this general violence. I would like to see our children brought up to abhor this violence: I would also like to see services for people who have gender issues have proper helping services. But it comes under the umbrella of "Mental Health", which not only perpetuates the very old context that to be transgender is to be in some way ill, but is hardly funded at all these days.

Galaxy

VS I dont want to prove you right or wrong really. You believe what you want. It has no influence on me. That might be the difference actually. I dont care what you believe.

Cool

Trans men are men, trans women are women

Every time you say "trans men" or "trans women" you acknowledge that to be the case

That's what I believe and that doesn't make me a bad person or ay lind of enemy to women

So here we are

Im enjoying a nice hot chocolate with Baileys in.

VioletSky

Trans men are men, trans women are women

Every time you say "trans men" or "trans women" you acknowledge that to be the case

That's what I believe and that doesn't make me a bad person or ay lind of enemy to women

So here we are

And you perpetuating the lies re TIM and TIW doesn’t make them true.

You’re happy to lie. So here we are.

Your beliefs don’t make you a bad person unless you inflict the outcomes of those beliefs on females, especially vulnerable ones.

When I say Trans man I am referring to someone born female who identifies as a man who takes action to appear more masculine including taking hormones to grow a hairy chest and facial hair, maybe has a mastectomy and grows a click.

When I say Transwoman I am referring to someone born male who identifies as a woman and takes action to appear more feminine, including surgery or hormones and maybe clothes and make up etc.

Let's be clear, that's what I mean when I say Trans man or Trans woman. I have a friend who was born female (but lives as a man) and we have discussed this stuff at large. They are very open about the issues they face. Everyone's different but body dysmorphia can be a big part of it. Some people end up transitioning back to their original state, anyway.

OnwardandUpward Have you tried any of the flavoured Baileys? The only one I’ve bought more than once is the coffee one. It’s delish 😍 and very quaffable.

VioletSky

Trans men are men, trans women are women

Every time you say "trans men" or "trans women" you acknowledge that to be the case

That's what I believe and that doesn't make me a bad person or ay lind of enemy to women

So here we are

That doesn't make sense. If they were men or women they would be called men and women, not transmen and transwomen. The fact that a prefix is necessary shows that there is a difference between a transwoman and a woman, and between a transman and a man. So every time you use the prefix you are acknowledging that this is the case.

Trans people face many issues that we don't and that many of us wouldn't even think of or understand unless it was explained. They cannot know the trials of being a woman anymore than a woman can know the trials of being a transwoman- but they cannot be treated the same because they are not. Each need individual and specific support. Each should have equal rights, but not the same treatment.

Women suffer things because they are women, like periods, pregnancy, menopause, perimenopause etc. I'm sure there are many other things that I haven't thought of- but transwomen cannot suffer those things or have compassion for something they have not experienced (and never will). Women and trans women cannot and should not be lumped together as they both have a very different set of individual needs and issues.

I've given this a lot of thought, but there are so many differences between trans women and women. Me calling them transwomen acknowledges their transitional state between what they were born as and what they identify as- sadly they will never be one thing or the other, but remain in a transitionary state, having altered their bodies from what they were but never having full access to all the benefits (or trials and shared experiences) of their desired gender.

I genuinely feel sorry for them. Transmen having periods despite taking male hormones, living as men. Wearing mens clothes yet a female body and female problems- but we're saying they should be classed as men? When they're having female reproductive problems? It's messed up!

Doodledog we have to acknowledge that trans men and transwomen are trans. Because they are transitional, between genders.

For this reason I feel that teaching full acceptance of ourselves and others would be good, that people feel a sense of belonging and an equal place in society as trans men or women alongside women and men, but not as them.

It's messed up it certainly is Onward and the most vocal who are supposed to be supporting the trans community are doing the most harm.

Actually, that was the first time I’ve seen anyone split the word transwoman into two parts. I suppose it was meant to be clever.🤣🤣🤣

OnwardandUpward

Doodledog we have to acknowledge that trans men and transwomen are trans. Because they are transitional, between genders.

For this reason I feel that teaching full acceptance of ourselves and others would be good, that people feel a sense of belonging and an equal place in society as trans men or women alongside women and men, but not as them.

A couldn't agree more. I accept transpeople, but as transpeople. This means that other than on the few occasions when it matters, which means when women are vulnerable which includes being undressed, ill, distressed, imprisoned or similar, they can live as though they are women. When those conditions apply, however, they should recognise that they are transwomen, and use sensitivity and decency to understand that they might cause distress by their presence and not force themselves into our spaces.

This does not mean that women don't want transwomen anywhere - just not where they are, or may become vulnerable.

This does not mean that women don't want transwomen anywhere - just not where they are, or may become vulnerable.

Sorry - that should read 'where we are, or may become vulnerable'. Pesky pronouns

I wouldn't usually have said all that, but I broke into the Christmas Baileys Smileless

For sooo many reasons I wish schools would teach radical self acceptance and self love, ways to overcome body dysmorphia. NOT ways to change what you were born as. It just creates more problems.

But then, look at Hollywood years ago when we used to watch Dynasty and similar- the stars all having plastic surgery. Its now much more mainstream and how the beauty industry and cosmetic surgery plays on insecurities to make money, including sadly those who are doing operations on trans people, promising them a different life. Rather cynically I feel it's all about money and that the government or big pharma has an agenda to get all these people on life long drugs. An NHS prescription is over £10. Many trans people are on more than one medication that not only has terrible health risks, but is immensely expensive.

I feel sad that they are exploited by their insecurities by people who are profiting at their expense, rather than taught self acceptance and self love.

Doodledog

OnwardandUpward

Doodledog we have to acknowledge that trans men and transwomen are trans. Because they are transitional, between genders.

For this reason I feel that teaching full acceptance of ourselves and others would be good, that people feel a sense of belonging and an equal place in society as trans men or women alongside women and men, but not as them.

A couldn't agree more. I accept transpeople, but as transpeople. This means that other than on the few occasions when it matters, which means when women are vulnerable which includes being undressed, ill, distressed, imprisoned or similar, they can live as though they are women. When those conditions apply, however, they should recognise that they are transwomen, and use sensitivity and decency to understand that they might cause distress by their presence and not force themselves into our spaces.

This does not mean that women don't want transwomen anywhere - just not where they are, or may become vulnerable.

Yes and we should always have that right to female only spaces. I agree with you.

Womens rights are Human Rights

Trans people need different support and medical attention so the distinction is needed

But I won't treat any trans person as anything less for that distinction

And I won't lower my own power to fear them as if they are dangerous to me just because predatory men exist

Doodledog, I feel it depends so much on individuals. We keep talking about "vulnerable women" as if all one group, no differences.

It assumes for example that all vulnerable women don't want anything to do with all men?