With reference to the recent issue with Lady Susan and Ngosi Fulani- at what stage does someone become British?

Iam64

Fleurpepper. Do you have any positive views on British people, no matter where they live

This is a light hearted thread.

Fleurpepper

Allsorts

Where your heart is.

Yes, however - it is not as easy as this.

There are so many people living in the UK whose heart is here- but they are not British, and even if they got nationality and passport, would not be accepted or considered as such by many, as kircubbin's post clearly indicates.

Do you believe that it is impossible to have your heart in two places, more even, perhaps. I can teel you that it is, for many.

I agree. I have lived in many countries, but the one (other than the UK) that I also felt I belonged in was China. Another old culture, like Britain, with many other similarities that were very unexpected to me. I am now too old (well, almost) to work there, so will probably never return. But a part of me will always miss it. I don't feel that way about other places I have lived.

So my heart is partly there, although I will never return.

Fleurpepper. Do you have any positive views on British people, no matter where they live

kircubbin2000

If you met Miss Fulani I don't think British would be your first thought, specially in that outfit!

It doesn't matter what others think. Legally and personally, she's British.

I can assure you British expats all over the world, who don't even speak the local language, or have NOT acquired the nationality of the country they live in - do that all the time, by the ton load.

MerylStreep

The people I have a problem with are people like the Spanish lady my friend married and now has citizenship but never stops harping about what we’re doing wrong.
We know what’s wrong. But it’s a bit like someone criticising your child / husband. You can do it, but not someone else.

EVen if they have lived in the country since kids, even if they have lived, participated, contributed, paid taxes, supported local services, etc, to the country for half a Century?

Allsorts

Where your heart is.

Yes, however - it is not as easy as this.

There are so many people living in the UK whose heart is here- but they are not British, and even if they got nationality and passport, would not be accepted or considered as such by many, as kircubbin's post clearly indicates.

Do you believe that it is impossible to have your heart in two places, more even, perhaps. I can teel you that it is, for many.

The people I have a problem with are people like the Spanish lady my friend married and now has citizenship but never stops harping about what we’re doing wrong.
We know what’s wrong. But it’s a bit like someone criticising your child / husband. You can do it, but not someone else.

My Dad was born in Poland (to German/Russian parents) and lived there until his early 20s. He was working in Belgium when WW11 broke out and crossed to England where he joined the Polish Free Army. He was stationed in Scotland for a time, met my Mum, and they were married post-war. Like many others, he never returned to Poland because of Communist rule, and took out British citizenship via naturalisation in 1952. He died five years later and I don’t remember him at all as I was so young and he was hospitalised for a long time prior to his death. Where we lived in England at that time, there was a sizeable number of Polish exiles, a lot of whom had married British women. Mum told me most had naturalised but to her ken, not one of them including my Dad ever thought of themselves as anything but Polish and that’s the way I have always thought of him.

Where your heart is.

I'm not sure! my first husband wasn't British but applied for citizenship after we married, although he really loved England, like many who come from overseas, memories and nostalgia are somewhere else so in a way it's quite normal to straddle two cultures. At the same time I think it's quite possible to develop a love for the country you adopt, At one time we were going to go and live in Australia ,we did the gruelling interview at Australia House and got our residents' visas, he did confess to me, having dipped our toes in the water over there for a short while, there were many things he told me he'd miss about England, not least of all the seasons when contemplating a life of constant hot weather. I think he loved what he considered idiosyncratic British behaviour. He could never quite understand why I didn't embrace something as typically English "As only Fools and Horses" the way he did, it was alright, but unlike him I don't think it was the best thing on TV. ever! Anyway he's still here! with a Belgian wife, of many years now, so presumably he may have spent his time since we parted! imbuing her with the delightful Del Boy!

My extended family, grandparents etc. came from all over the place the leaving of somewhere else was more absolute then that is my perception, once you'd left you'd left from whence you came, communication was by letters so definitely a different mindset than today where courtesy of the internet you can stay pretty in touch with the home country. One of my grandfathers sounded so foreign to my ears but from what I could garner , he seemed to think England was a good place to be, I have no idea whether he felt British even if he didn't sound it. .

M0nica

GagaJo Lots of people get discriminated all the time for all kinds of reasons. It shouldn't be acceptable, but it happens.

So we ignore it, do we?

kircubbin2000

If you met Miss Fulani I don't think British would be your first thought, specially in that outfit!

Why ever not? She's British, as is my future son-in-law - born and raised in Manchester, British public school, British universities, slight Manc accent. He has brown skin and black curly hair and has experienced all sorts of racist comments.

1) The day you are born in Great Britain
2) At the point where you acquire British Nationality and a British Passport

GagaJo Lots of people get discriminated all the time for all kinds of reasons. It shouldn't be acceptable, but it happens.

Mamie

Our son has taken Spanish nationality (he has a Spanish wife and Spanish children). Taking Spanish nationality means that he gives up British nationality.
Is he no longer British at all?
I have no idea.

Does he not have dual nationality....my son born in the UK now has Canadian citizen ship and a Canadian passport...he travels everywhere on his Canadian passport....unless he comes home to the UK....he considers himself british if asked

If you met Miss Fulani I don't think British would be your first thought, specially in that outfit!

We also have a very 'mixed' family, apart from boring old white me. But we see it as wonderful, a living example of a melting pot, culminating in my stunningly gorgeous (I'm biased of course) DGS.

M0nica

Fleurpepper It isn't the theory, it is the facts. The government has legally defined how someone becomes a British citizen, by birth or other measures

What you are referring to is the way individuals react to different people of different ethnicity, which is something entirely different and is described as 'racism'

Racism usually only occurs if the individual is not white though. What happens if the person is ethnically caucasian but with an original non-British nationality (such as my friend who has recently become British)? He gets discriminated against at times because he is 'different' (in his mannerisms, his speech, his approach to things) but it isn't racism.

Mamie

I also think it is very individual. Our son lived for 21 years in the UK and now 30 years living and working in Spain. He is fluent in Spanish (98% in citizenship language exam). Probably still supports England, then Spain for football.
We don't have French citizenship, still feel British, though after 17 years France is increasingly my country.
DH supports France for football, England for rugby and cricket.
What do you think Fleurpepper?

Yes, love this. So many in our family and friends do have those x overs, often multiple times. It makes life so interesting, and personally, I have never experienced any issues, and neither has OH, who is even more more 'mixed' than most- but it doesn't 'show'.

Foxie, no confusion- but they are all facets of how people perceive others, and how individual, families even, feel about it all. As Mamie says, it can get complicated- but in a very positive way.

I can imagine how it gets to really 'grate' when how they feel is questionned, again and again. Either in an unplesant way, or very condescending way. Something I have never experienced, in 52 years, until I joined GN. But is is a general question and discussion.

Fleurpepper It isn't the theory, it is the facts. The government has legally defined how someone becomes a British citizen, by birth or other measures

What you are referring to is the way individuals react to different people of different ethnicity, which is something entirely different and is described as 'racism'

foxie48

Nationality is according to the link posted by Blossoming If you are British according to that link, you are British. It doesn't change the "reality" of anything. I have a nephew and niece who live abroad, they speak adequate English with a strong accent as they left the UK as very young children, if you met them you might think they had a different nationality, but they are British. What someone else thinks is of no consequence. I am rather struggling to understand what you are asking.

On one side, is the Law, on the other side, is the perception and reaction of other British people (goes for other nationalities elsewhere btw). Yes, The Law is clear- but the every day reality can be very different. Did you watch the video I linked? Did you follow the story about the meeting with Lady Susan? Have you got friends of relatives who have told you about being treated very differently- because they somehow are not considered as 'properly British' due to birth elsewhere, parents who are from elsewhere, colour, ethnicity, accent? (something I myself have never ever come across, until recently on GN).

I wonder if we aren't confusing Nationality with Ethnicity, Race and Culture?

I also think it is very individual. Our son lived for 21 years in the UK and now 30 years living and working in Spain. He is fluent in Spanish (98% in citizenship language exam). Probably still supports England, then Spain for football.
We don't have French citizenship, still feel British, though after 17 years France is increasingly my country.
DH supports France for football, England for rugby and cricket.
What do you think Fleurpepper?

Blossoming

I have no further comment to make, I am not interested in an online argument.

Argument? Where is the argument? This is a discussion, why does it have to be an argument?