Gransnet forums

Chat

Why oh why is there so much hate

(298 Posts)
BlueBelle Mon 13-Feb-23 15:18:09

What has happened to us and especially our young people there’s just been terrible frightening happenings outside an immigration hotel led by a 19 year old boy
A young transgender girl is stabbed to death in a park
Almost every day there is a teenager stabbed or kicked to death what has happened to our society ?
Police being tried for murder and rape
Why is everyone so angry ….to the point of killing others, others who are innocent of ever having harmed these perpetrators

Galaxy Tue 14-Feb-23 18:05:49

It doesnt matter what you said, simply saying that men have sex with men was considered grossly offensive by many people including many who held power, the right to speak freely by saying things that many thought offensive was what gave minority groups their rights.
The most powerful defense I ever heard about 'freedom of speech' was from a Jewish man who had lost many of his family in the holocaust, he felt it was better to cope with the small number of mindless idiots who said horrendous things than to cope with a government controlling speech.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 14-Feb-23 18:08:42

Galaxy I think I agree with the Jewish Gentleman of your post.

Galaxy Tue 14-Feb-23 18:11:46

I am embarrassed I cant remember his name. It was on a podcast somewhere.

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:16:15

Any time Fleur

I'm not one of those who would put you down for your concerns and expressing your feelings

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:17:28

Galaxy

It doesnt matter what you said, simply saying that men have sex with men was considered grossly offensive by many people including many who held power, the right to speak freely by saying things that many thought offensive was what gave minority groups their rights.
The most powerful defense I ever heard about 'freedom of speech' was from a Jewish man who had lost many of his family in the holocaust, he felt it was better to cope with the small number of mindless idiots who said horrendous things than to cope with a government controlling speech.

What does that have to do with hate speech though?

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:19:49

Is there things you can't say that you want to be allowed to say in defence of your rights galaxy

Like what?

Because we have a wonderful vocabulary

Galaxy Tue 14-Feb-23 18:24:14

Because you are giving control of speech over to people who may not agree with your definitions. Way back then those in power might have considered the statement that men can love men hate speech if such a thing had existed.

TerriBull Tue 14-Feb-23 18:25:34

Doodledog

TerriBull

"Maybe hatred of others is inbred" that would be inbred English hatred, why of coursehmm So boringly predictable the undisguised veiled anti English sentiments, imagine how YOU would react if anyone were to infer there could possibly be an inbred Scottish hatred!

There does seem to be generational hatred of the English passed down in some Scots families, alongside sectarian hatred of other Scots.

My grandfather told me some terrible tales of Orange marches in his home city of Glasgow, of bricks being thrown and whole streets being involved in riots. He remembers hiding under a table with his siblings and his mother during one particularly memorable march which had escalated to a free for all.

It was a shock to me, as an English child, that he could tell Catholics and Protestants apart simply from their names and where they lived (he claimed to be able to spot the difference by looking at someone, but I remain unconvinced on that score), as that was not something that applied in my world. Nor did 'no Blacks, no Irish or dogs' to be fair, but that may have been a generational thing - I never saw rooms advertised as being to rent at all.

Anyway, I don't think that bigotry is confined to England in the UK - it's pretty clear to me that none of the home nations can claim righteousness on that score.

I grew up catholic and went to a catholic school where many of my fellow pupils either had two Irish parents or like me had some Irish via a grandparent. Of course it's very hard to understand that prejudicial mindset living down south, even back then one's religion didn't really matter, I had friends outside of school who weren't catholic.

One friend, born in Ireland but came to England aged 5 whose accent is now very southern English, married a Glaswegian Protestant. When she went up to Glasgow some of his people were utterly vile to her, so much so, she never went back again. It is truly hard to understand that kind of inbred hatred and prejudice for what? a different religion and accent shock

Wyllow3 Tue 14-Feb-23 18:28:28

Ilovecheese

I am not sure that the people who think they qualified to decide what is hate speech are the people who should do the deciding.

I've just picked up on this to turn into to a question really: it seems to me that most on this thread will agree that hate crime that leads to attacks and violence need to have legal boundaries set a reasonable balance freedom of speech with adequate curbing of clear incitement to violence

So who decides and how could we get this balance?

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:29:14

Galaxy

Because you are giving control of speech over to people who may not agree with your definitions. Way back then those in power might have considered the statement that men can love men hate speech if such a thing had existed.

No, I control my speech completely

Do I choose to not use hate speech? Yes

I would never need to use hate speech, I would never need to use my speech to inspire or threaten violence towards another group.

It works pretty well for me, I'm quite good at sticking up for myself without resorting to hate speech

Galaxy Tue 14-Feb-23 18:32:32

My view is you have as few controls on speech as possible, in our society there should be certain 'beliefs' that hold firm, such as a commitment to democracy, commitment to free speech, so that if say Farage got elected those standards may hold in the face of a 'bad' man gaining power.

Galaxy Tue 14-Feb-23 18:34:48

That's lovely VS, I dont want you or anyone controlling others speech, I find it terrifying.

BlueBelle Tue 14-Feb-23 18:36:37

When I lived in Malaysia I remember how the Malays did not like the Chinese and Indians who took all their jobs that was many years ago, not sure how it is now

There just seems so much hatred and negativity now and I guess with social media what would have stayed between one or two people becomes public very very quickly and just grows legs

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:46:31

I'll tell you what I actually think, so it's on record:

I think that in situations where it transpires that young people are acting out hate crimes and ending the lives of other young people then the adults who had influence over these young people have contributed to the destruction of all lives involved. The lives of the victims and the lives of the attackers who will reside in prison and the mental health trauma of smaller attacks.

I've said it before but we have responsibility for how we discuss matters in public and in private.

Hate speech leads to violence and that is why we have laws in the first place, to prevent those who are not able to differentiate between a perceived threat or fear shared by people online and a real one... so they attack.

That is the danger in prejudice and discrimination and that is why as a society we must do better.

VS out of this insane tennis match for a bit

GrannyGravy13 Tue 14-Feb-23 18:47:39

VioletSky unless I am mistaken you othered people on this thread by calling them knuckle draggers & cave dwellers

Could that be construed as inciting hate ?

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:49:45

GrannyGravy13

VioletSky unless I am mistaken you othered people on this thread by calling them knuckle draggers & cave dwellers

Could that be construed as inciting hate ?

Hang on wait

Are you for real?

I othered people who are discriminatory

You decide if that's you or not, not me, I don't know you

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:52:50

I'm talking about hate speech and my views on it in general...

On a thread about hate

Please explain what is wrong with that and how that attacks anyone here?

GrannyGravy13 Tue 14-Feb-23 18:54:10

VioletSky you may think they were being discriminatory other might not, there in lays my point…

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 18:54:55

Anyway I'm out for a bit, it's getting a bit silly and annoying now

Galaxy Tue 14-Feb-23 19:23:25

Its getting complex, because well it is.

Smileless2012 Tue 14-Feb-23 19:24:23

I othered people who are discriminatory by using discriminatory language ie knuckle draggers and cave dwellers VS.

MerylStreep Tue 14-Feb-23 19:41:39

i’m waiting for the outcome of the situation
In the meantime your searching for any article that backs up your warped opinions. That also goes for Fleurpepper as well.

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 20:01:13

Apart from the fact that I have already allowed that perhaps I shouldn't say that...

If you want to defend racists, sexists etc, from little old me, go ahead

Fleurpepper Tue 14-Feb-23 20:10:36

MerylStreep

^i’m waiting for the outcome of the situation^
In the meantime your searching for any article that backs up your warped opinions. That also goes for Fleurpepper as well.

Pardon? It was confirmed on BBC and other News that police are now believing it was very possibly hate crime, as in related to her trans status. In the Press too. There is no need to look for it, and how is my 'opinion' on this warped?

I have no agenda. I am a woman, and have never had any doubt about that. I don't get being gay or trans. But I have friends who are, quite a few- and even if I don't get it at all, I respect them and their choices, and will stick up for them against bigotry, in RL and indeed on GN. Warped?

VioletSky Tue 14-Feb-23 20:14:35

MerylStreep

^i’m waiting for the outcome of the situation^
In the meantime your searching for any article that backs up your warped opinions. That also goes for Fleurpepper as well.

If I'm included in this I pull like evidence

I have just been reading the news as usual

What on earth is everyone getting so upset about