Sex education in UK schools but not as we knew it!

Rosie51

Absolutely brilliant Doodledog 👏👏👏 I loved Joyce Grenfell, and you had her spot on

Glorianny I see you addressed the addition, but not the original post. To save you having to scroll back I'll paste it here:

So do you think the teacher should have respected the rights of the girls to say they don't believe in gender identity, instead of calling them despicable and saying they should go to another school? Their beliefs are equally worthy of consideration and respect. I do hope you're not equating believing scientific facts with being rascist. As Doodledog pointed out, people who say homosexuality is same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction could be considered homophobic. It was actually funny that she said there were lots of genders, then lists only transgender and agender.

Do you think the girl should be affirmed in her cat gender by the school? Do you honestly think it's healthy to reinforce such a belief that she's really a cat? Where does it stop.....with a cat name, with cat food and a litter tray or her licking herself clean and meowing instead of speaking? It quickly becomes quite farcical.

Your views may be anything you wish, but if they are permitted to make another child uncomfortable then that is not acceptable and the school will have to take action. So no child should feel uncomfortable? Where there are opposing views being expressed you will often find discomfort. Whose discomfort takes precedence? I don't mean just in this case.

I'm interested where you stand on these points.

The only thing I am equating as far as racism is concerned is the way that a child may find differing opinions in school to those expressed at home. This could be true for any number of things including religion. The standard is the same, schools are places where children are treated equally regardless of any difference, they in turn must treat each other as equals.

As for the cat gender the child's treatment would depend upon the advice given by any expert involved in her care. She would presumably have an EHC assessment and plan.

Where would there be discomfort? If a child is asked not to swear in school does that cause discomfort? If a child is asked not to use abusive language in school does that cause discomfort? Children's language and behaviour is constantly monitored and directed in schools all without too much discomfort. If you are referring to where a child sits, usually some negotiation finds a seat that suits.

Very apt TerriBull.

Glorianny said

The child accepted as she is, without criticism

The teacher told the child her views were despicable and she should leave the school.

That’s hardly acceptance and without criticism.

If you believe in inclusion you include everybody and respect them, even those whose opinions are different to yours.

Or you mouth stuff like “inclusion “ and do the opposite 🤔☹️

sandelf

Policy doc from the .gov.uk site. Can't rely on any 'news' any more - they only prioritise clickbait. educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2023/03/10/what-do-children-and-young-people-learn-in-relationship-sex-and-health-education/

This guidance is actually under review right now - given some of the stuff kids are being taught in these classes. The government plan to provide more specific guidance - very soon I believe.

Lathyrus

Glorianny said

The child accepted as she is, without criticism

The teacher told the child her views were despicable and she should leave the school.

That’s hardly acceptance and without criticism.

If you believe in inclusion you include everybody and respect them, even those whose opinions are different to yours.

Or you mouth stuff like “inclusion “ and do the opposite 🤔☹️

Well said, and so often forgotten in these rather one-sided definitions of 'inclusion'.

I do wonder what, if anything, will happen between now and the GE. The Labour Party is tying itself up in knots trying to be 'inclusive' and stay on the right side of the trans lobby, although it looks as though some departure from the Stonewall script is being allowed on a trial basis at least. If Sunak wants to capitalise on that he will need to make some sort of stand, and challenge Labour to object or go along with it. I sincerely hope that Starmer will take the opportunity to agree that there should be a new look at these issues.

I understand that a group of parents aided by the Bad Law Project are bringing a class action against the DofE for a failure to act on the foreseeable harms caused to children by gender ideology as taught in schools. I don't know if this will implicate individual teachers, or be limited to the policy makers, but it comes to something when the only way parents can get their voices heard is to use a vehicle sponsored by Laurence Fox.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words about my JG impression .

Lathyrus
Or you mouth stuff like “inclusion “ and do the opposite 🤔☹️
It depends what you’re including. Currently the much touted inclusion is very exclusive.

The teacher was the one who behaved despicably, and they should be sacked. I've heard that recording, her behaviour towards the children was completely inappropriate. As for some of the sex education and gender stuff children as young as primary school age are being taught in schools - words fail me!

Glorianny As for the cat gender the child's treatment would depend upon the advice given by any expert involved in her care. She would presumably have an EHC assessment and plan. In an ideal world, maybe. In the real world child A comes into school Monday morning and declares they are cat gender. Are you seriously saying there will be an expert on the case forthwith? Of course there won't. So does the school affirm the cat gender or not? Do they address child A in the cat manner s/he wishes? Should the other children immediately adopt an affirmation attitude? Is any child who declares an identity that isn't concordant with their biological sex given an EHC assessment, if so that's a new one on me. My disabled grandson waited an age for any assessment. Certainly there's no indication of any expert being involved in the quoted child's case.

I'm amazed that such topics are being talked about to such young children. I have no objection to PROPERLY trained staff discussing such things with older students. I do wonder if parents are told beforehand what is being discussed so they are prepared for any questions/comments that might arise at home - I'm envisaging a family dinner where child asks parents if they have anal sex!

How things taught in school (and by parents) have changed changed since I was in the 1920s and 1930s!
I knew very little about the subject until I joined the WAAF at age 19 and had lectures mainly about sexual diseases but I don’t think it did me any harm. Lessons of Latin rather than sex!

The mouthing of inclusion stands alongside such phrases as

If (your views) make another child uncomfortable that is not acceptable

But those who have been made uncomfortable by having a different sex in toilets with them have not been shown that consideration.

And what if the behaviour of the self identified is uncomfortable to anyone close to them. Is the cat permitted to rub itself against people’s legs or to try to sit on their laps?

What is the behaviour of a self identified cat? How do they express their catness and what level of tolerance is expected from others?

It’s also very concerning how the teacher twisted and put words in the uphills mouth, using those to condemn her.

The accusations of saying the cat person should be in an asylum or saying that people who identify as other henders are weird.

The pupil said neither of those things. The teacher accused her deliberately falsely.

That twisting and falsehood is always wrong but for a teacher to do it to a pupil who is on her care is morally bankrupt.

I cannot contemplate how any Head or Governing Body could allow this in their school.

uphills=pupil obviously

What is the behaviour of a self identified cat?

From experience I'd say they change their minds about what they like and dislike at the drop of a hat. They pretend to like you but have absolutely zero loyalty if they see something or someone better elsewhere. And they crap on your bed. They demand 100% tolerance of their abhorrent behaviour.

Rosie51

Glorianny As for the cat gender the child's treatment would depend upon the advice given by any expert involved in her care. She would presumably have an EHC assessment and plan. In an ideal world, maybe. In the real world child A comes into school Monday morning and declares they are cat gender. Are you seriously saying there will be an expert on the case forthwith? Of course there won't. So does the school affirm the cat gender or not? Do they address child A in the cat manner s/he wishes? Should the other children immediately adopt an affirmation attitude? Is any child who declares an identity that isn't concordant with their biological sex given an EHC assessment, if so that's a new one on me. My disabled grandson waited an age for any assessment. Certainly there's no indication of any expert being involved in the quoted child's case.

Teachers would do what teachers always do Rosie51 try to make the child as comfortable and happy as possible, stop other children picking or bullying her and make sure her education progresses as smoothly as possible. That may mean adopting a range of strategies.
What do you want them to do? Ignore her? Pick on her? Insist she changes? Wouldn't that be just another way of discriminating? Doesn't the cat-child deserve exactly the same consideration you are demanding for the child who made the recording?

I'm sorry it took a long time for your GS to be assessed. But I don't suppose teachers were telling him there was nothing wrong with him or he just needed to pull himself together, which seems to be what you want for other children. And teachers are not responsible for the wait.

Was the ‘cat’ fed cat food on the floor from a cat bowl? Did they demand a litter tray? How can such ridiculous behaviour be condoned?

Pick on her? Insist she changes? Wouldn't that be just another way of discriminating?

Forgive me bit, isn't that precisely what she did to the child who had the temerity to question her? Did she not tell her how despicable she was? That she needed to go and find a different school? Why, in your particular world, is one child to be supported, encouraged and protected whilst the other is to be shamed, lied to and threatened with being ostracised? Why are you unable to see this?

CheersMeDears

^Pick on her? Insist she changes? Wouldn't that be just another way of discriminating?^

Forgive me bit, isn't that precisely what she did to the child who had the temerity to question her? Did she not tell her how despicable she was? That she needed to go and find a different school? Why, in your particular world, is one child to be supported, encouraged and protected whilst the other is to be shamed, lied to and threatened with being ostracised? Why are you unable to see this?

I really haven't supported the teacher. I have said she handled it really badly. So I'm not quite sure what you are accusing me of.
I've already said. The girl who made the recording is quite entitled to think as she wishes. She is not entitled to be rude to, call names or ridicule another child. Regardless of any beliefs she holds.

And yet it's the girl's perceived shortcomings that you focus on. Interesting.

CheersMeDears

^Pick on her? Insist she changes? Wouldn't that be just another way of discriminating?^

Forgive me bit, isn't that precisely what she did to the child who had the temerity to question her? Did she not tell her how despicable she was? That she needed to go and find a different school? Why, in your particular world, is one child to be supported, encouraged and protected whilst the other is to be shamed, lied to and threatened with being ostracised? Why are you unable to see this?

Is this what it means to be Teachers Pet🤭

Germanshepherdsmum

Was the ‘cat’ fed cat food on the floor from a cat bowl? Did they demand a litter tray? How can such ridiculous behaviour be condoned?

I don't know, you don't know. But let's put it like this the child is entitled to an education just like any other child. And accommodating the needs of any child is part of educating them.
I once taught a child who sometimes had difficulty coping with a classroom full of children. He had a personal space which was covered and separated from the other children. He sometimes spent all day in there

That’s not like insisting you’re a cat, is it? I agree that a child is entitled to an education but if their behaviour disturbs other pupils that education is better provided outside a mainstream school. The perversions of the minority should not prejudice the education of the majority.

Actually, once you have identified as a cat, why be at school? No other cats are allowed in school-or are we proposing that as a next step?
If she is a cat, she should be removed from school forthwith. That would solve two problems, the no-cats in school problem and the chance of bullying by the cat or the cat being bullied by children.

No cat is so intelligent that it can act as a human, and do what humans do in school. Nor do they have the physical capability to perform the tasks required.
If she is intelligent and physically capable enough to do what is required in school, then she knows she is not a cat.
For those proposing to keep her in school, what’s next?
If she doesn’t have the physical and mental capabilities to perform tasks in school, is the next step providing her with an EHCP and a a cat-speaking scribe for her?
This is attention seeking par excellence and I wish I could believe that this ridiculous state of affairs won’t be supported on the grounds of inclusion, but sadly . . .

Lathyrus

The mouthing of inclusion stands alongside such phrases as

If (your views) make another child uncomfortable that is not acceptable

But those who have been made uncomfortable by having a different sex in toilets with them have not been shown that consideration.

And what if the behaviour of the self identified is uncomfortable to anyone close to them. Is the cat permitted to rub itself against people’s legs or to try to sit on their laps?

What is the behaviour of a self identified cat? How do they express their catness and what level of tolerance is expected from others?

Teachers don't mouth inclusion. They struggle to develop and grow a society in which every child feels happy and fulfilled. They do so whilst coping with people who are happy to condemn them the minute they slip up. They do so trying to balance one group of parents who think their beliefs should take precedence over another groups. They do so whilst steering children through an increasingly polarised and discriminatory society. One where refugees are castigated, politicians encourage division and people insist only their views matter.
Identifying as a cat when you think about how humanity is going is actually pretty sensible.