Sex education in UK schools but not as we knew it!

I think we've had this discussion before Doodledog and there are a limited number of degrees where giving a face to face presentation is considered an essential part of the course.
How do you know this? How many assessment criteria have you looked at, and on which degrees? How many degree courses have you been responsible for writing, teaching on and gaining accreditation for? As I said earlier, I don't think I know everything about everything, but I have recent experience of all of those things, and I do know what I am talking about, however much you try to shout me down.

You question I think the decisions that a student is unable to do the presentation because of stress or mental health issues. I would leave that decision to the professionals and any student receiving medical help or counselling should of course be accommodated. Any student requesting such a special consideration should be asked to seek professional advice.

Profession help is, of course, available to students, as with everyone, and any student can seek advice on anything they choose. Doctors' notes are taken seriously, and whatever you 'question', academic staff do not have a default disbelief of what they are told in the first place. The point is not that we don't sympathise, but that we have other considerations, and it is simply not realistic to allow, say, a drama/performing arts student to bypass all assessments that involve being on stage, or a music student to be assessed without playing an instrument in front of anyone.

What you think people 'should be' doing isn't really the point. Universities are not like schools in that there are few 'universal' policies decided on by government. Governments make decisions about funding, but the day to day management of the numerous institutions is left to individual VCs, and rules are not the same across the sector. Obviously everyone needs to stay within the law, but there are significant differences between institutions on all sorts of things.

However, rather than allow the threat to continue to be diverted by what was simply an analogy, let's return to the furries - have you changed your position on this since you thought that a suggestion that it would follow the acceptance of other 'identities' was pathetic?

VS says she reads the G.

Has anyone heard the recording between the teacher and girl who had differing opinions as to definitions of sex and gender? that's before they even got on to the girl who identified as a cat, maybe we've reached peak nonsense there but who knows! Possibly not if litter trays and feeding bowls are introduced into any environment for feline identifiers Listening to the exchange, I found it quite sobering, the girl aged about 13 I believe, who wasn't cheeky or rude, merely stated her case that she believed "if a person has a vagina then, in her opinion, she is classified as a girl, if the person has a penis he is classified as a boy" The teacher's response, imo, was pretty hectoring in her admonishments and when the girl added "that's also what my mother would say" I think the teacher said something along the lines of "well that's sad too" The girl asserted that she wasn't in anyway homophobic towards anyone gay or lesbian, merely that she didn't believe in umpteen genders. I'm not quoting verbatim because I can't remember her actual words but something along the lines of "you are not allowed to say that in my lesson and you may care to attend another school if those are your opinions and she, the teacher would need to do a report and so would the child"

Chilling! An adult teacher disparaging a child in her perfectly reasoned argument. George Orwell was a prophetic writer 1984 is as salient today as it was when he wrote it!

*I think we've had this discussion before Doodledog and there are a limited number of degrees where giving a face to face presentation is considered an essential part of the course.
How do you know this? How many assessment criteria have you looked at, and on which degrees? How many degree courses have you been responsible for writing, teaching on and gaining accreditation for? As I said earlier, I don't think I know everything about everything, but I have recent experience of all of those things, and I do know what I am talking about, however much you try to shout me down.*
I don't think I'm shouting. I'm not a university lecturer as you know. I do however have experience and knowledge of the laws on disability. Basically unless there is real evidence that the presentation has criteria which are essential to the qualification being offered, the university must offer any student with a disability (be it physical or mental) alternative arrangements or special provision. Not to do so is discrimination.
All universities are subject to the Equality Act 2010

So what I seem to be picking upon this thread now is that children whose views you agree with have a perfect right to them and should voice them, even though another child might be upset. Whereas children whose views you don't like or don't understand are just wrong, and shouldn't be permitted to think or act as they do, or if they continue to behave as they do, shouldn't be in school.
I wonder where you draw the line in these matters and who decides which child should be castigated and which accepted?

So we agree then? As I said, everyone must comply with the law. And yes, in many cases presentations are essential to the qualification offered.

And the furries? Have you changed your mind, or is their presence in schools 'pathetic'?

Not necessarily.
Abrahart v University of Bristol, County Court, 2022
This tragic case involved a physics student with depression and social anxiety disorder. The university continued to seek to use oral interviews to assess her, even though she failed to attend most of them. This continued after the university knew she had a mental health problem connected to the interviews. She committed suicide in her flat on the day when the university wanted her to be part of a group giving an oral conference presentation. The County Court held the university liable under the Equality Act.

I've been out since mid-morning, just catching up.

Doodledog I think you'll find Glorianny will ignore all references to her calling you pathetic for raising the likelihood that schools would eventually have to cater to furries. To admit she was wrong and give a genuine apology is a step too far.

Mollygo that's an excellent point about having the parents in to explain how they treat their child like a cat at home. I'm pretty sure they won't be feeding the child cat food from a bowl on the floor, and will be insisting the child bathe, clean their teeth etc not self clean by licking. Does the cat use a regular toilet at home or a litter tray in full view of the humans?
Unless there's consistency across home and school I think we can deduce this is a power play by the child.

Glorianny

Not necessarily.
Abrahart v University of Bristol, County Court, 2022
^This tragic case involved a physics student with depression and social anxiety disorder. The university continued to seek to use oral interviews to assess her, even though she failed to attend most of them. This continued after the university knew she had a mental health problem connected to the interviews. She committed suicide in her flat on the day when the university wanted her to be part of a group giving an oral conference presentation. The County Court held the university liable under the Equality Act.^

So the university was held accountable under the law, as I said.

What they should have done is not stated in your quote, and we can't know it without seeing the whole judgement. Should she have been asked to go home and get treatment, defer her assessments until she was better, switch to another more suitable course, or what?

This case was a cause celebre, and whatever you or I may think about it, the government did not bring in a legal duty of care over and above the general one that compels universities to 'do no harm' or words to that effect. Students are adults in law, and staff are not in loco parentis. If a parent is aware that their child is not robust enough to comply with assessments as laid out in course prospectuses they carry some responsibility, IMO.

But this is not the topic of the thread, and if we keep discussing this issue we will avoid the topic of whether your position on the furries has altered since you found the suggestion that children would start to present in school as such as 'pathetic' .

I would be interested to know what, if anything, has changed your mind, as that was quite a slur, wasn't it?

Doodledog I think you'll find Glorianny will ignore all references to her calling you pathetic for raising the likelihood that schools would eventually have to cater to furries. To admit she was wrong and give a genuine apology is a step too far.
Just seen this. Yes, I suspect you are right 😩. Never mind. People might remember this when the so-called 'gender critical' are accused of being the ones who insult and slur the names of their opponents on these threads.

Glorianny says

So what I seem to be picking upon this thread now is that children whose views you agree with have a perfect right to them and should voice them, even though another child might be upset. Whereas children whose views you don't like or don't understand are just wrong, and shouldn't be permitted to think or act as they do, or if they continue to behave as they do, shouldn't be in school.
Once again, Glorianny projects exactly what I think she means.
Anyone whose ideas or views Glorianny disagrees with are to be castigated. Any child whose views or actions Glorianny approves of are free to act in whatever manner they like, even if it it means bullying other children or causes distress to other children.
It mirrors her reaction to the problems my DGD faced when confronted by bullying. Well done Glorianny.

I think that much depends on the age of the child and the extent to which their 'identification' goes.

I wouldn't be keen to treat a child as a cat, and can absolutely see that someone meowing or purring in the classroom is going to be disruptive. I know, however, that teachers are not able to act beyond the diktats of the Head, as we saw in the case of the woman who was sacked when she called a class of girls in a girls' school 'girls'. I dare say that they have to fit in with the ethos of the school, as was said in that case.

In an ideal world, a child who claimed to be a cat, or a dinosaur, or a unicorn - over the age of six or so - should probably get psychological help, as per Glorianny's suggestion for adult students not wanting to comply with assessment criteria. What the parents then do with that help or information is, as with the student, up to them. I would probably go along with a five year old who wanted to be called Spiderman or similar. They grow out of it on the whole.

Again, I am not an expert, but I wonder if mainstream school is the right place for psychologically disturbed children. In many cases, however, I suspect that the parents might lose sight of the 'special' nature of their offspring if given the option of a special school, and support staff in telling them that they are part of a class, have the body they were born with (for both sex and species), and as such need to conform just like all the others, during school time at least.

The simplest (and IMO most sensible) thing is to return to girls and boys, (as per sex, not so-called 'gender'), teach both sexes the same things (ie no needlework or woodwork sex-based split), separating only for sport at whatever age is deemed suitable and leave it at that. Humans only. If children want to pretend to be the opposite sex or a different species at home or out of school, let them, but encouraging or affirming it at school should stop ASAP.

I wholeheartedly agree Doodledog. As usual, a very sensible post.

Mollygo

Glorianny says

So what I seem to be picking upon this thread now is that children whose views you agree with have a perfect right to them and should voice them, even though another child might be upset. Whereas children whose views you don't like or don't understand are just wrong, and shouldn't be permitted to think or act as they do, or if they continue to behave as they do, shouldn't be in school.
Once again, Glorianny projects exactly what I think she means.
Anyone whose ideas or views Glorianny disagrees with are to be castigated. Any child whose views or actions Glorianny approves of are free to act in whatever manner they like, even if it it means bullying other children or causes distress to other children.
It mirrors her reaction to the problems my DGD faced when confronted by bullying. Well done Glorianny.

Well that’s the kind of bullying technique that the pupil was subjected to from her teacher.

The rephrasing of what has actually been said into something quite different and then the judgemental condemnation of what was never actually said.

Pupil: If you have a vagina you’re a girl. If you have a penis you’re a boy.

Teacher: Do if someone doesn’t think that they’re weird. That’s what you’re saying.

It’s a technique deliberately used to wrong foot, belittle and confuse and lacks any kind of respect or understanding.

It’s shaming that it’s use should be supported or even tolerated in schools.

Pupil: If you have a vagina you’re a girl. If you have a penis you’re a boy.

Teacher: So if someone doesn’t think that they’re weird. That’s what you’re saying.

It’s a technique deliberately used to wrong foot, belittle and confuse and lacks any kind of respect or understanding.

And it happens on these threads all the time.

(and thanks, GSM)

Should a child be able to identify as a furrie? Yes if they choose too.

Should a child who does so, be able to attend mainstream education and if they're a 'cat' respond to their fellow class mates and teachers by meowing? No.

Should a child's classmates be reprimanded if they refuse to accept they have a 'cat' in their class? No, why should they?

Reply to Cossy

You say you're “not sure” what I mean by ideology - I'm using the word with its every day meaning so unclear why you're confused.
Gender indentity is an ideology - just like any other - it has no factual or scientific basis. Humans, like all mammals, come in two sexes - male and female with one of each sex required to produce offspring. Humans cannot change sex - every single human that has ever existed was produced by a female, never a male.

Lathyrus, I learnt it from the expert, Glorianny herself who could twist anything I said and present it as something I didn’t.
in this instance, the statement
children whose views you agree with have a perfect right to them and should voice them, even though another child might be upset applies whichever way round you put it.
Hence if you feel a child should be able to act like a cat even though it upsets children whose lessons are disrupted, you believe that’s right and others are wrong.

Then the twisting of what I said about, if a child is and acts as a cat, then school is not an appropriate place. Is school an appropriate place for an animal who cannot access the curriculum?
Translated into
Whereas children whose views you don't like or don't understand are just wrong, and shouldn't be permitted to think or act as they do, or if they continue to behave as they do, shouldn't be in school.
Dies that mean all children should be allowed to behave as they like at school.
Would you keep a child who declares he is a tiger and acts like a tiger in school?
I didn’t support the way the pupil was addressed, I made that clear. Equally I can’t support the free for all that would ensue if children were allowed to behave as they like, so where would you propose to draw the line.

I'm waiting for the werewolf.

Mollygo

Lathyrus

There’s a world of difference between pretending to be a mouse and wanting people to join in sometimes and believing you are a mouse and demanding that everyone else believes you are.

The child in the recording was told her beliefs were despicable and that she was not wanted at the school. There’s no getting away from what the teacher did.

Quite right too. Being told you’re despicable is . . . despicable. Being told you’re not wanted at a school is equally so. Having it explained to you-together with your parents that school (any school) is not a suitable environment for cats is different.
I would suggest asking the child what they feel a cat needs that could be provided by the school, or to explain why they ‘feel’ they are a cat, but you can’t have a conversation with someone unable to communicate in human language, sign language or even Makaton.
It would be interesting to have parents explain whether they are treating their child as a cat at home and what that involves. Do they take the cat abroad on a pet’s passport? Do they only stay at places that allow pets? Especially important is how their cat communicates or occupies itself without access to the internet, or other media, which is where most of this originated.
Does the child (cat) use a mobile phone? Does the child communicate outside school with words?
Then the child is not a cat and the performance in school is powerplay.
I asked online
Is furry an orientation? The answer I got was, It's not. It's a fandom
Furries don't identify as animals; they identify with animals. In the same way that cosplayers don't believe they are actually Spiderman, furries don't think they are their fursonas.

Excellent post.

As I don't have a mobile myself, I hope cats don't either.

Doodledog

I think that much depends on the age of the child and the extent to which their 'identification' goes.

I wouldn't be keen to treat a child as a cat, and can absolutely see that someone meowing or purring in the classroom is going to be disruptive. I know, however, that teachers are not able to act beyond the diktats of the Head, as we saw in the case of the woman who was sacked when she called a class of girls in a girls' school 'girls'. I dare say that they have to fit in with the ethos of the school, as was said in that case.

In an ideal world, a child who claimed to be a cat, or a dinosaur, or a unicorn - over the age of six or so - should probably get psychological help, as per Glorianny's suggestion for adult students not wanting to comply with assessment criteria. What the parents then do with that help or information is, as with the student, up to them. I would probably go along with a five year old who wanted to be called Spiderman or similar. They grow out of it on the whole.

Again, I am not an expert, but I wonder if mainstream school is the right place for psychologically disturbed children. In many cases, however, I suspect that the parents might lose sight of the 'special' nature of their offspring if given the option of a special school, and support staff in telling them that they are part of a class, have the body they were born with (for both sex and species), and as such need to conform just like all the others, during school time at least.

The simplest (and IMO most sensible) thing is to return to girls and boys, (as per sex, not so-called 'gender'), teach both sexes the same things (ie no needlework or woodwork sex-based split), separating only for sport at whatever age is deemed suitable and leave it at that. Humans only. If children want to pretend to be the opposite sex or a different species at home or out of school, let them, but encouraging or affirming it at school should stop ASAP.

Excellent post, well done you!

There is a very distinct possibility here that children and young people are as sick of the 'gender woo' as are many adults, and are 'identifying' as cats/dinosaurs etc to take the proverbial and make a point in protest against it all.

I mean seriously - how many children really think they are cats? And how many intelligent adults honestly think that they should go along with those who say they are?

As a 'glass half full' person, I like to think that this is another ray of hope - a glimmer of light at the end of the mixed metaphor tunnel of trans domination in which we have found ourselves for the past few years.

Doodledog
My granddaughter said they are having a laugh I said seriously? she said of course they are, it’s all a joke

On a serious note: we know there are people who truely believe they are.

We know there are some very dodgy people in the 'Furry community', that's for sure. But if the kids are just having a laugh at the earnest school staff 'because they can', then it puts a different complexion on things. Young people have always laughed at older ones who try to be trendy, and this might just be more of the same.

Either way, how annoying for the children who want to learn, though. I thought I was joking with my Joyce Grenfell post earlier.

Othering things people don't understand or can't relate too is a sad part of the human condition and an unnecessary one.

As long as people aren't hurting others I don't see any point in ridiculing them.

Obviously lesbians and gay people should never be attacked and that's unacceptable in schools or anywhere else. Bullying is awful and damaging even when you understand that those children are often normalising behaviour they have experienced themselves and lash out in ways that go against their actual core principles often, just to hurt. Homophobia is worse because while it contains bullying, it is also opinion based and victims know this, they know it's their authentic selves hated, things they can never change about themselves. They can't get gay taken off like braces or lose or gain gay like weight or heal gay like acne. It's who they are forever and even if they are called names, as a gay person, solely as bullying it's too close to what too many real people think of them. Sometimes in their own homes where they should be safe.

This is why others have protected characteristics for things that just are, not a choice.

Children must be taught not to discriminate and how othering, divisive and morally bankrupt doing so is.