Sex education in UK schools but not as we knew it!

Rosie51

Doodledog

Apology? I doubt it.

I suspect that on the whole children ’identifying’ as furries are either attention-seeking or disturbed in some way, but there is a way more sinister side to it that should be investigated.

There certainly is a sinister side, the Pride marches where fetishly dressed adult furries encourage children to pet them etc. And that's in plain view, what on earth is going on under cover of secrecy?

Exactly my point, Rosie. But I am pathetic for bringing it up, so what do I know?

Well said Glorianny! The teachers in the schools I have worked at have an incredibly hard job, keeping every child (and parent and headteacher!) happy.

I don't dispute that, choughdancer, but the 'let every flower bloom' philosophy, whilst lovely in theory, just doesn't work in classroom situations where you have large numbers of children, all of whom are special, and all wanting to express themselves in an environment that often concentrates on uniformity.

Not only that, but as has been said, when one person (child, student, employee, whatever) is seen to be getting 'special treatment', others are antagonised. I've seen it in my own workplace where every year there are students opting out of presentations and exams because of anxiety. As the degree is accredited by a professional body, it is not possible (or desirable, IMO) to remove those requirements, which are clearly pointed out in the prospectus. If someone does 'get away with it' other students are, understandably, angry, as it seems that they are being disadvantaged by having to comply when others don't.

There is further evidence of that viewpoint on the thread about council housing. Many people see 'incomers' getting houses as pushing longer-term residents out, and say it's not fair. Resentment is unpleasant, but it is foolish to ignore it, IMO.

There is always going to be conflict between people wanting to be individuals and institutions needing to insist on conformity. All children (and adults) are special, but allowing those who insist that they need to be treated in accordance with their own wishes to dictate how things should be run is not possible.

I think that at least some of the 'gender' thing is about that - young people wanting to make a mark and assert their individuality. As ever, their means of doing so becomes more and more popular, and stops being radical so something else takes over, but it can be too late for those who have taken hormones or had surgery.

I see allowing children to be 'furries' as a further step along this road, and it has been clear for some time that it would happen.

Glorianny

Rosie51

I wonder how amenable these schools would be to a pupil determined to wear their Nike trainers rather than plain black shoes, if said pupil identified as Usain Bolt (other athletes are available) and therefore needed to be shod for a quick run at any time? No more ridiculous than wearing a cape because you're 'a moon'.

I don't know Rosie51 what would you do?

I'd either have not allowed any deviations from uniform and behaviour standards for assumed identities, or I'd allow an absolute free for all.
What would you do when the school is usually intractable about minor uniform deviations?

Rosie51

Glorianny

Rosie51

I wonder how amenable these schools would be to a pupil determined to wear their Nike trainers rather than plain black shoes, if said pupil identified as Usain Bolt (other athletes are available) and therefore needed to be shod for a quick run at any time? No more ridiculous than wearing a cape because you're 'a moon'.

I don't know Rosie51 what would you do?

I'd either have not allowed any deviations from uniform and behaviour standards for assumed identities, or I'd allow an absolute free for all.
What would you do when the school is usually intractable about minor uniform deviations?

It would depend on the reason behind the behaviour. The trouble with basing policies on newspaper articles is that you seldom get the whole story. The "moon" child could be neurodiverse, in which case special adaptation might be necessary. One of the wonderful things I found about children is that when the reason for another child being treated differently is clearly explained to them, they invariably support that child.

I think that the idea that every child needs to be indulged in whichever way he or she wishes, encouraged by sharp-elbowed parents who are indignant at the idea that their son or daughter should have to be treated like other children has borne fruit.

I believe my own children to be special. They couldn't be more special to me. But both I and they are aware that whilst they may have aspects of their make-up that can make life difficult for them at times, they need to find ways to do this, not expect everyone else to bend around them.

I am not talking about physical disabilities here. Of course they are different and people can't 'find ways' to cope with not being able to see, or walk, or whatever it is. Finding things stressful, being anxious, or issues such as ADHD, Dyslexia, and so on are different, in that they can be mitigated to some extent in various ways that don't involve opting out of things that others have to do. Many people find academic learning difficult, but nobody screams 'discrimination' if they don't get university places, or insists that they shouldn't have to take A levels as entry qualifications because they are too difficult.

I know that is not directly comparable to gender or furry issues, but it is something with which I am very familiar, and it seems to me to be all part of the same 'me me' pattern that is, IMO, at the root of a lot of it.

Doodledog

Rosie51

Doodledog

Apology? I doubt it.

I suspect that on the whole children ’identifying’ as furries are either attention-seeking or disturbed in some way, but there is a way more sinister side to it that should be investigated.

There certainly is a sinister side, the Pride marches where fetishly dressed adult furries encourage children to pet them etc. And that's in plain view, what on earth is going on under cover of secrecy?

Exactly my point, Rosie. But I am pathetic for bringing it up, so what do I know?

Well said Glorianny! The teachers in the schools I have worked at have an incredibly hard job, keeping every child (and parent and headteacher!) happy.

I don't dispute that, choughdancer, but the 'let every flower bloom' philosophy, whilst lovely in theory, just doesn't work in classroom situations where you have large numbers of children, all of whom are special, and all wanting to express themselves in an environment that often concentrates on uniformity.

Not only that, but as has been said, when one person (child, student, employee, whatever) is seen to be getting 'special treatment', others are antagonised. I've seen it in my own workplace where every year there are students opting out of presentations and exams because of anxiety. As the degree is accredited by a professional body, it is not possible (or desirable, IMO) to remove those requirements, which are clearly pointed out in the prospectus. If someone does 'get away with it' other students are, understandably, angry, as it seems that they are being disadvantaged by having to comply when others don't.

There is further evidence of that viewpoint on the thread about council housing. Many people see 'incomers' getting houses as pushing longer-term residents out, and say it's not fair. Resentment is unpleasant, but it is foolish to ignore it, IMO.

There is always going to be conflict between people wanting to be individuals and institutions needing to insist on conformity. All children (and adults) are special, but allowing those who insist that they need to be treated in accordance with their own wishes to dictate how things should be run is not possible.

I think that at least some of the 'gender' thing is about that - young people wanting to make a mark and assert their individuality. As ever, their means of doing so becomes more and more popular, and stops being radical so something else takes over, but it can be too late for those who have taken hormones or had surgery.

I see allowing children to be 'furries' as a further step along this road, and it has been clear for some time that it would happen.

Once again lots of criticism but no positive suggestions.
What do you do with these children?
How do you deal with a whole class of them?

Many people find academic learning difficult, but nobody screams 'discrimination' if they don't get university places, or insists that they shouldn't have to take A levels as entry qualifications because they are too difficult
Well actually they do. And universities have to make their admission process adaptable and suitable for those with disabilities., and if they do not do so they can be challenged by people "screaming discrimination"
Nor are A levels the only route to University.

Chardy

Thank you for the link to the Government guide lines.

It was very informative and it's clear that the government have a fairly good understanding of what is really important for a child to know (and may be understand) as they go through education.

However, as with most things there is room for personal agendas and "moral entrepreneurs" to distort the guide lines.

Doesn't matter who reads what paper or listens to or watches what news what is disturbing is that some children are being disturbed or traumatised by the teaching in some schools.

How do parents protect their children from all the sexualisation in any of it's forms that is so pervasive now ?

That seems to be the big question. How do we protect our young people from too much too soon.

Glorianny says
Once again lots of criticism but no positive suggestions.
What do you do with these children?
How do you deal with a whole class of them.

Unless you support indulging their fantasy, then I’ve already suggested what to do.

If they identify as a cat and you accept that they are a cat, then they should not be in school. The argument that they are being denied the education they need is invalid, because the education a cat needs will not be found in school.
There is nothing in any education act which obliges teachers to teach any other animals than humans.
With regard to wearing Nike trainers, most schools accept any reasonable form of footwear, including trainers. Although those that I know of, insist that outdoor shoes are not worn in the gym.
Re wearing capes etc. it’s an earlier version of claiming special rights, and we’ve seen how that turns out.
However that would not warrant exclusion from a school if the cape wearer was
i) able to take part in lessons in the same way as the other pupils
ii) did not disrupt the learning of the other pupils
iii) did not use their moon status to bully non-moons by demanding punishment for what they see as offence.
iv) acted in a manner befitting moon status and only appeared at night, with the exception of the few occasions when a moon is still visible during the day.

Sex education in UK schools but not as we knew it!

It was a mystery to me for quite some time - we learnt age 11/12 how a baby developed in the womb, how it was born (before then, I had a notion it came out of an expanding tummy button) but not how it got there.
It took a few years before I realised.

We certainly don't want to go back to those days but perhaps we've gone way past what is necessary for children to learn?

Glorianny

*Many people find academic learning difficult, but nobody screams 'discrimination' if they don't get university places, or insists that they shouldn't have to take A levels as entry qualifications because they are too difficult*
Well actually they do. And universities have to make their admission process adaptable and suitable for those with disabilities., and if they do not do so they can be challenged by people "screaming discrimination"
Nor are A levels the only route to University.

Yes, I am fully aware of that, but academic achievement is still the entry to academic courses. You may well get a place on a vocational course based on experience (and I wouldn’t argue against that), but on more traditional courses people generally accept that qualifications are expected.

Anyway, the principle applies regardless. Everyone can’t have special treatment, however much they might want it or how lovely it would be.

Once again lots of criticism but no positive suggestions.
*What do you do with these children?
How do you deal with a whole class of them?*
It’s not my role to make suggestions- I may have strong opinions but I don’t think I am an expert in everything. Also, offering suggestions would just lead to deviations into why they are untenable.

FWIW and to avoid accusations of dodging the issue, I would apply the same criteria to this as to other things - let the parents deal with it at home (after safeguarding has been taken into account) but while in school the children conform.

Mollygo

Glorianny says
Once again lots of criticism but no positive suggestions.
What do you do with these children?
How do you deal with a whole class of them.

Unless you support indulging their fantasy, then I’ve already suggested what to do.

If they identify as a cat and you accept that they are a cat, then they should not be in school. The argument that they are being denied the education they need is invalid, because the education a cat needs will not be found in school.
There is nothing in any education act which obliges teachers to teach any other animals than humans.
With regard to wearing Nike trainers, most schools accept any reasonable form of footwear, including trainers. Although those that I know of, insist that outdoor shoes are not worn in the gym.
Re wearing capes etc. it’s an earlier version of claiming special rights, and we’ve seen how that turns out.
However that would not warrant exclusion from a school if the cape wearer was
i) able to take part in lessons in the same way as the other pupils
ii) did not disrupt the learning of the other pupils
iii) did not use their moon status to bully non-moons by demanding punishment for what they see as offence.
iv) acted in a manner befitting moon status and only appeared at night, with the exception of the few occasions when a moon is still visible during the day.

The problem with that is that the parents can say (and quite rightly) the fact that a cat has never been educated is no indication that a cat can't be educated. My child identifies as a cat but legally she was born and is a child, in which case I have a legal duty to present my child for education after the age of 5-"here she is".

I'm just thinking about the battle we had to persuade people that my dyslexic son was capable of academic work, just not of presenting it in the accepted format. It seems that discrimination and elitism still hold sway.
I would have thought by now that most people would have realised that diversity and inclusion bring to education a huge range of possibilities and developments, and dealing with those who are different brings to society a richness and wealth, that is absolutely invaluable.

Your choice to support the fantasy Glorianny. But it is a fantasy. Of course you have a child that identifies as a cat or whatever the current fad is. Though would you stop short of your child identifying as superman and leaping from the roof?
Have you been treating your child as a cat feeding it cat food, make it go in a litter tray, never washing it because it washes itself? Had social services been involved in your treatment of your child?
Either your child is a cat therefore does not need school or your child is a human and needs to conform to school rules.
Bullying teachers into making them attempt to teach your cat is unacceptable.
Maybe these parents, who are supporting their children’s fantasies, should be obliged to come into the classroom and work with their child.
Do you support depriving other children other children of the education they need whilst teachers administer to your child’s fantasy?
I’m aware that some parents do.

I have taught in schools in times that have had “flash points” where different viewpoints could have resulted in mayhem.

The period of Civil Disturbance in Brixton in the Eighties.
The days after the 9/11 attack.

The adults in the community had very strong, opposing views and the children brought those to school with them and were very vocal in expressing them.

Nevertheless we maintained an effective learning environment by acknowledging their right to express their views, by a firm direction that this is what people believe and that they have a right to their beliefs and then by exploring in a calm and rational way the basis for their beliefs. By presenting facts and questioning assumptions prejudices.

All the adults in the school were committed to create an environment of understanding and respect.

Those paragraphs of high sounding words mean nothing if the practice does not follow. Telling somebody their views are despicable and twisting their words is neither respectful nor honest.

Yes it is hard for staff in schools but you will never create a place of tolerance and acceptance if the adults only tolerate and accept those who agree with them.

Glorianny

I'm just thinking about the battle we had to persuade people that my dyslexic son was capable of academic work, just not of presenting it in the accepted format. It seems that discrimination and elitism still hold sway.
I would have thought by now that most people would have realised that diversity and inclusion bring to education a huge range of possibilities and developments, and dealing with those who are different brings to society a richness and wealth, that is absolutely invaluable.

Yes, and I agree that finding another format is a sensible approach. There was no need for the unsubtle snide dig.

Using speech recognition software, recording an answer, giving extra time in exams, providing coloured lenses or whatever works for a particular student is not special treatment. Letting them opt out of a presentation assessment that everyone finds stressful, on the other hand, is special treatment, is resented by other students, and is criticised by External Examiners and accrediting professional bodies.

To return to furries and other identities though, a five year old wanting to be Superman, or whatever the modern equivalent might be is one thing. If there is no uniform, letting 'Superman' come to school in a cape is unlikely to matter, so long as it is removed if it poses a danger. A 14 year old identifying as Superman, however, is a different thing altogether, and either represents a MH problem, a developmental issue, or is attention-seeking deliberate awkwardness or rebellion.

May I ask, Glorianny, whether you still think that the notion of children turning up to school as furries is 'pathetic', or do you now wish to withdraw that insult?

Doodledog

Glorianny

I'm just thinking about the battle we had to persuade people that my dyslexic son was capable of academic work, just not of presenting it in the accepted format. It seems that discrimination and elitism still hold sway.
I would have thought by now that most people would have realised that diversity and inclusion bring to education a huge range of possibilities and developments, and dealing with those who are different brings to society a richness and wealth, that is absolutely invaluable.

Yes, and I agree that finding another format is a sensible approach. There was no need for the unsubtle snide dig.

Using speech recognition software, recording an answer, giving extra time in exams, providing coloured lenses or whatever works for a particular student is not special treatment. Letting them opt out of a presentation assessment that everyone finds stressful, on the other hand, is special treatment, is resented by other students, and is criticised by External Examiners and accrediting professional bodies.

To return to furries and other identities though, a five year old wanting to be Superman, or whatever the modern equivalent might be is one thing. If there is no uniform, letting 'Superman' come to school in a cape is unlikely to matter, so long as it is removed if it poses a danger. A 14 year old identifying as Superman, however, is a different thing altogether, and either represents a MH problem, a developmental issue, or is attention-seeking deliberate awkwardness or rebellion.

May I ask, Glorianny, whether you still think that the notion of children turning up to school as furries is 'pathetic', or do you now wish to withdraw that insult?

I think we've had this discussion before Doodledog and there are a limited number of degrees where giving a face to face presentation is considered an essential part of the course. You question I think the decisions that a student is unable to do the presentation because of stress or mental health issues. I would leave that decision to the professionals and any student receiving medical help or counselling should of course be accommodated. Any student requesting such a special consideration should be asked to seek professional advice.

Once again I don't think it matters why the child is identifying in such a way, that's a matter for a professional diagnosis the child still needs to be educated and just as other factors are catered for his needs will have to be met. It isn't a teacher's job to change a child. It is a teacher's job to try and educate and help him learn and adjust.

I still think it's pathetic to focus on any minority group and use it to justify discriminatory and divisive views.

I once cast a child as a mouse in a school production. He was a child with learning difficulties, malnourished and neglected. He made an excellent mouse and sometimes reenacted his role in the classroom. It gave him great pleasure, a sense of achievement and some respect from the other children. Education isn't just about academia.

IMO they should not be in mainstream education.

There are some very good, informative and considered contributions to this discussion but I still feel as if I'm living in an alternative universe, in which the world I thought I knew has gone mad.

When I read the post Doodledog, where you contemplated the possibility of children turning up to school as furries, I thought no surely not and yet, here we are.

I don't know what I find the most difficult to believe, that this is actually happening or, that there are those who support the right of a student to attend a teaching facility identifying for example as a cat, and responding to questions by meowing.

What do you say to a parent who says their child has a right to have catgender or any other animalgender? You are of course free to support your child's fantasy, but it wont be supported here.

There’s a world of difference between pretending to be a mouse and wanting people to join in sometimes and believing you are a mouse and demanding that everyone else believes you are.

The child in the recording was told her beliefs were despicable and that she was not wanted at the school. There’s no getting away from what the teacher did.

Precisely Lathyrus.

Have we had any posts reminding everyone that kids identifying as cats, moons and dinosaurs are just wanting to be their true and authentic selves and negative attitudes towards them causes huge distress and anxiety so just be kind yet? Or to remember that we live in an interesting world and there's no need to make it smaller with our own limitations in understanding what drives others? Or perhaps that there are currently 27 recognised genders and more are being discovered as we speak (dinosaurs, cats and moons are included)?

Lathyrus

There’s a world of difference between pretending to be a mouse and wanting people to join in sometimes and believing you are a mouse and demanding that everyone else believes you are.

The child in the recording was told her beliefs were despicable and that she was not wanted at the school. There’s no getting away from what the teacher did.

Quite right too. Being told you’re despicable is . . . despicable. Being told you’re not wanted at a school is equally so. Having it explained to you-together with your parents that school (any school) is not a suitable environment for cats is different.
I would suggest asking the child what they feel a cat needs that could be provided by the school, or to explain why they ‘feel’ they are a cat, but you can’t have a conversation with someone unable to communicate in human language, sign language or even Makaton.
It would be interesting to have parents explain whether they are treating their child as a cat at home and what that involves. Do they take the cat abroad on a pet’s passport? Do they only stay at places that allow pets? Especially important is how their cat communicates or occupies itself without access to the internet, or other media, which is where most of this originated.
Does the child (cat) use a mobile phone? Does the child communicate outside school with words?
Then the child is not a cat and the performance in school is powerplay.
I asked online
Is furry an orientation? The answer I got was, It's not. It's a fandom
Furries don't identify as animals; they identify with animals. In the same way that cosplayers don't believe they are actually Spiderman, furries don't think they are their fursonas.

A child who has spent a traumatic night is not responsible for the problem and deserves attention and sympathy.
A child who choses to identify as a cat has chosen to do so deliberately, on the basis of attention seeking, and needs to be dealt with accordingly. If it feels an affinity with the animal kingdom then it can indulge it out of school hours.

Have we had any posts reminding everyone that kids identifying as cats, moons and dinosaurs are just wanting to be their true and authentic selves and negative attitudes towards them causes huge distress and anxiety so just be kind yet?

I despair.

CheersMeDears

Have we had any posts reminding everyone that kids identifying as cats, moons and dinosaurs are just wanting to be their true and authentic selves and negative attitudes towards them causes huge distress and anxiety so just be kind yet? Or to remember that we live in an interesting world and there's no need to make it smaller with our own limitations in understanding what drives others? Or perhaps that there are currently 27 recognised genders and more are being discovered as we speak (dinosaurs, cats and moons are included)?

I don’t think so. Although I might have missed it. I think Guardian readers have abstained.