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What is a lesbian?

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FarNorth Sun 13-Aug-23 00:31:17

Did you think it's uncontroversial to say that lesbians are women (adult female humans) who are sexually attracted to other women (adult female humans)?

You'd be wrong.

Men (adult male humans) can be lesbians too.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12401009/amp/Lesbian-speed-dating-event-sparks-transphobia-row-organisers-insist-adult-human-females-attend-popular-weekly-event.html?ico=amp_articleRelated_with_images

FarNorth Sun 13-Aug-23 17:05:52

Glorianny

I'm just wondering how far such discrimination should extend. Speed dating for Gay men only- no transmen allowed.
Speeddating for transwomen- no ADF's, allowed
Speed dating for transmen- no male bodied at birth allowed
Speed dating for heterosexuals- no transpeople allowed
Speed dating for bisexuals- no hets, no gays, no lesbians allowed.
It could get so complicated!!!

Yes, why not any of those if they are wanted.

Sexual attraction is very different from simply not discriminating in everyday life.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 17:06:09

Iam64

Fleur pepper’s examples of boys /men wanting to be female because of their childhood experiences of toxic masculinity go to the heart of the concerns about the GID clinic at the Tavistock.
Those of us accused of being terfs/anti trans were criticised for being concerned the focus only on the desire to transition rather than a full medical, psychological, social assessment.

Yes, I understand this. Especially as some who have transitioned are now turning against the medical and psychological teams, saying it was a mistake and they should have been better counselled.

I have certainly NOT accused anaone of being terfs/anti trans.

In the 3 cases I know very well and close to me- I do believe all 3 would have been at massive risk of depression and/or committing suicide had they had faced refusal. Which further indicates they needed psychological and emotional support, and not necessarily hormones and surgery. Yes, I get that. And yet, would suicide have been a better option? I imagine some will say yes. I remember an aunt and my grand-mother saying it was a 'good thing' that my mum's cousin had committed suicide as he 'was not natural'. I was a young teenager at the time, and I was truly shocked by the comment and it has remained with me.

Those who have made the painful and difficult full transition, should not be compared or assimilated to men determined to undermine and attack lesbians- in lycra and with full erection, surely?

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 17:07:00

Can we at least agree on that?

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 17:11:32

M0nica

Surely if a physically entire man with an erection who identifies as a female attends a lesbian event wanting to meet up with woman, complete, that just proves that he is heterosexual and doesn't belong there.

Transwomen are not automatically homosexual, Following their logic they should be attending male homosexual meet-ups to meet men as the masculine half og their femininity.

Or have i got it all completely mixed up!

At the risk of stating the obvious, being gay or straight is about sexuality, being male or female is about sex. Anyone, male or female can be gay, straight or bisexual. Gay people want to have sex with others of their own sex, and straight people with the opposite sex. Bisexuals might have sex with both. That is separate from 'gender'.

Being trans is about 'gender', which is a social construct. It is not measurable, and differs across time, place and culture. People can be male or female, gay, straight or bi, and conform or not to the expectations attached to the gender usually associated with their sex. So you get 'girly' straight women and lesbians who conform to female gender expectations, 'macho' men who are gay or straight and conform to gender ideals for males, 'butch' lesbians and 'camp' gay men who do not conform in the same way, and all manner of other types of people in between the extremes. There is no reason why a man can't be a man (gay or straight) and be camp, or a woman can't be likewise or the opposite and still be a woman.

A man who wants to have sex with women is a heterosexual man, whether or not he chooses to conform to female 'gender' stereotypes. He is not, and cannot be a lesbian, which is a word for women who like sex with other women - a word with which many women felt that they could finally identify without fear after years of oppression. It is tragic that this is being taken from them and replaced with meaningless terms like 'same-gender attraction' because some men think that it is against the laws of nature that women, regardless of their sexuality, are not falling at their feet.

Glorianny Sun 13-Aug-23 17:19:25

FarNorth

Glorianny

I'm just wondering how far such discrimination should extend. Speed dating for Gay men only- no transmen allowed.
Speeddating for transwomen- no ADF's, allowed
Speed dating for transmen- no male bodied at birth allowed
Speed dating for heterosexuals- no transpeople allowed
Speed dating for bisexuals- no hets, no gays, no lesbians allowed.
It could get so complicated!!!

Yes, why not any of those if they are wanted.

Sexual attraction is very different from simply not discriminating in everyday life.

And how would you identify the people you chose to exclude? How does someone prove their sexuality?

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 17:22:04

They can't. But sex is a different matter. Do you think someone with a visible erection is likely to be anything other than a sexually excited male? And that if he is in the company of women the chances are that he is a heterosexual male (or one who gets off on scaring women)?

GrannyGravy13 Sun 13-Aug-23 17:22:32

Doodledog good post 17.11

GrannyGravy13 Sun 13-Aug-23 17:23:01

Doodledog

They can't. But sex is a different matter. Do you think someone with a visible erection is likely to be anything other than a sexually excited male? And that if he is in the company of women the chances are that he is a heterosexual male (or one who gets off on scaring women)?

YES

GrannyGravy13 Sun 13-Aug-23 17:23:48

Sorry to explain I agree with you ^Doodledog*

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 17:25:32

grin

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 17:25:57

Not easy- and yes, a erect penis is a bit of a giveaway.

Depends on countries too- but if a woman looks perfectly like a woman and very feminine (not camp) - (whatever that means, but let's say no beard, small hands and feet, no Adam's apple, etc) - like my nephew now niece- who has officially changed name, and is legally married to a man- you would never ever know. If she worked in a hospital, in a care home, as a massage therapist, as a lingerie advisor, or whatever.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 17:27:50

Doodledog

They can't. But sex is a different matter. Do you think someone with a visible erection is likely to be anything other than a sexually excited male? And that if he is in the company of women the chances are that he is a heterosexual male (or one who gets off on scaring women)?

That is very clear- and no-one is disputing that.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 17:28:43

I'm really not having a go at you FP, but whether you or anyone else would ever know is really not the point. Or it is very much the point, if the point is that women have a right to refuse intimate touch from a male.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 17:29:50

Fleurpepper

Doodledog

They can't. But sex is a different matter. Do you think someone with a visible erection is likely to be anything other than a sexually excited male? And that if he is in the company of women the chances are that he is a heterosexual male (or one who gets off on scaring women)?

That is very clear- and no-one is disputing that.

I think Glorianny might dispute it, but of course I can't speak for her.

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 17:30:42

So you get to decide that some men are indeed men but when we do.it to people that are your friends that's not ok. Surely you can see that's not going to work either at a legal or societal level.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 17:33:13

Doodledog

I'm really not having a go at you FP, but whether you or anyone else would ever know is really not the point. Or it is very much the point, if the point is that women have a right to refuse intimate touch from a male.

I understand- and yet, I can only speak as I see and know. My niece works in a care home- she is truly loved and appreciated by her clients. But she was born male and fully transitioned at 19. Where she lives, she is officially female and married to man. And that is it.

Do you believe btw that males in hospital and care homes should have that choice? If so, this would just not be possible due to shortage of staff, and even more so. shortage of male staff.

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 17:34:08

I am not having a go at you FP, reading that back that sounded unnecessarily confrontational from mesmile. I just mean we cant have a criteria of nice men are allowed in womens spaces.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 17:36:11

Galaxy

So you get to decide that some men are indeed men but when we do.it to people that are your friends that's not ok. Surely you can see that's not going to work either at a legal or societal level.

Not at all- I make the difference between men who have made the difficult and painful choice to transition fully, hormonal treatment and many surgeries- thus totally committing to becoming 'women'. And those who are hell bent on disrupting gays and lesbians, who have full 'tackle' has someone above called their genitalia- and are a risk to women in a way a fully trans woman will not in 99.9999999 of cases.

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 17:38:23

Do you believe btw that males in hospital and care homes should have that choice?
Yes, of course. There are, for instance, religions which forbid either sex being touched by those of the opposite one outside of marriage, although to be fair they usually look after their own when it comes to care.

I doubt if many people would exercise their right to refuse, but I do believe that it should be protected.

I know you love your friends, and I doubt that they would do anyone harm from what you have said, but do you see Galaxy's point? There has to be a rule one way or the other - there can't be a Fleurpepper protocol that allows some transpeople rights not awarded to the man in the latex outfit.

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 17:38:40

I worked in care, managed childrens homes for those who needed personal.care, we were very lucky in that we had a high percentage of Male carers and we offered same sex care. I believe males are entitled to same sex care but there is obviously a difference in terms of level of risk.

Dickens Sun 13-Aug-23 17:38:45

Lesbians are women attracted to other women.

Why would a Lycra-clad individual with male genitalia on obvious display attempt to barge into a dating-event set up by them, if not to goad them and challenge their right to a lesbian environment?

It appears some TW cannot accept that lesbians don't want to have sex with them. Heterosexual men sometimes rape women who refuse their advances; this individual didn't rape any of the women - but he comes from the same stable of male entitlement which, when thwarted, resorts to bullying and threatening behaviour. It is misogynistic, male-pattern behaviour.

Elegran Sun 13-Aug-23 17:40:06

Fleurppepper. I know that you are passionate about this and loyal to your friends, but you are attacking posters for something they have not sinned in. You have said yourself that you agree with the theme of this thread, that a very obviously and aggressively still-male trans person should not have turned up at a lesbian dating event and demanded to be a part of it.

No-oneis denying trans people their chance to live their lives as they think that those who were born in the gender that they wish that they were, and no-one wants to condemn them to stay as they do not wish to be or to suffer so much that they commit suicide. You have invented for yourself that cruel denial and projected it onto people who are merely stating a biological fact - that transgender people, however much they are considered in everyday life as the gender they choose, are still biologically the sex (not gender) they were previously.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 17:41:57

Galaxy

I am not having a go at you FP, reading that back that sounded unnecessarily confrontational from mesmile. I just mean we cant have a criteria of nice men are allowed in womens spaces.

I understand you are not having a go. I am truly trying to get my head around the whole subject, which is so so complex.

A fully transitioned woman who looks like a woman will access female toilets, no-one will know. And in countries were it is allowed to change your name officially after full transition- will be allowed to work as females, in care homes, hospitals, etc. and be very good at it, and cannot be discriminated against.

I can understand why what I am saying is controversial for many, totally. I'd hope that we can agree that a man in lycra with a visible erection, hell bent on trouble at a lesbian only event- should not be mixed up and confused with those I have described above.

Should my niece turned out at such an event- no-one would ever notice anyhow.

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 17:42:23

That criteria would exclude most transwomen and I am not sure we should be basing access to womens spaces on a procedure which is risky and involves long term health implications. Also I think it creates a situation where womens boundaries are dependent on mens feelings and actions, I have no interest in what men may or may not have done to their body when I am in say a single sex changing room.

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 17:47:08

It is very complex FP and I think it's important to talk about, I really appreciate you talking about this.