Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Or maybe - in the case of public toilets or changing rooms anyway - we could have cubicles-only, with floor to ceiling doors and internal wash basins? And no communal area.

I don't know if that would work. But it would prevent anyone from having to present any form of ID, and allow for individual privacy.
This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

Older buildings often have neither space nor plumbing to do this successfully, and a rule saying that only suitable buildings need to have such facilities would be a sop to the real concerns of many women. Most universities would be exempt, as would many office blocks, listed buildings, theatres and pubs and restaurants in older buildings.

Doodledog

*Or maybe - in the case of public toilets or changing rooms anyway - we could have cubicles-only, with floor to ceiling doors and internal wash basins? And no communal area.*

I don't know if that would work. But it would prevent anyone from having to present any form of ID, and allow for individual privacy.
This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

Older buildings often have neither space nor plumbing to do this successfully, and a rule saying that only suitable buildings need to have such facilities would be a sop to the real concerns of many women. Most universities would be exempt, as would many office blocks, listed buildings, theatres and pubs and restaurants in older buildings.

This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

This of course is the problem which I was aware of when I made the observation.

I wonder how new-builds will develop in future.

But, of course, the exemptions are a problem. Especially pubs and entertainment venues. And possibly universities.

Almost certainly universities. Old buildings often have fewer gents’ that ladies’ anyway, and the plumbing is such that it would be difficult to install new toilet blocks.

I really think that if that were adopted as a solution it would mean that nothing changed other than that ladies’ loos would become ’gender neutral’ (incorporating disabled and baby changing) so women’s facilities would shrink even further compared to men’s, and we would still be sharing what used to be our spaces with everyone.

Germanshepherdsmum

*OddOne*, whether you like it or not this person is a man.

Incorrect.

However, whether I like it or not, you, and many others on here, seem to be despicable human beings incapable of allowing other people to live their lives the way they wish to, a way which has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else, but you all insist on making it your business. By denying a person's identity you not only deny them their right, you deny them respect.

As someone with a foot in several minorities that suffer discrimination on a daily basis, I find the bigotry, and indeed, pure hatred, being openly displayed in this "discussion" absolutely nauseating. I joined GN expecting to find other educated, open minded and non-judgemental people, having grown tired of the ignorant, prejudiced, 30 and 40 somethings on other SM sites. I have, unfortunately, discovered I was totally incorrect. In fact, most here are far worse than the younger generations elsewhere. With this fact having been unwaveringly proven herein, I can only bid a, not at all reluctant, farewell GN is not for me, I'm too accepting. For my own peace of mind, and indeed, sanity, I need to remove myself from this extremely toxic environment, which I shall do forthwith.

I'll leave one final thought that many of you could learn from:

A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open!

A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open! and when it's open, it's able to disagree with well articulated opposing points of view, without resulting to insulting those that have them by accusing them of being bigots and displaying "pure hatred".

Actually oddone you sound quite bigoted towards those who hold a protected belief.

Oh dear, referring to someone by their actual sex, assigned to them at birth, makes one a despicable human being, bigoted … obviously OddOne prefers fantasy to reality.

I would respond to that if Oddone were able to back up her tirade of accusations with evidence - as it stands, in her bigoted eyes disagreeing with her point of view appears to amount to ‘hatred’, and discussing on a discussion site is equivalent to being ‘a despicable human being incapable of allowing other people to live their lives the way they wish to’.

None of us is ‘not allowing’ anyone to do anything - that is not in our gift. We are discussing possible ways to allow transwomen the right to live their lives without (a) infringing on the rights of women to privacy and dignity, and (b) without all of them being perceived as the potential threat that some of them undoubtedly are.

Whenever women defend women’s rights we are seen as ‘man haters’. Best to ignore the tropes and stand up for the rights of our daughters and granddaughters.

Accusations of bigotry are always used in discussions about TW.
The bigotry, if it exists, is two way.

The bigots who think TW lying about, their sex is wrong, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

The bigots who think it’s OK for TW to lie about, their sex, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

And Galaxy, that sounds right.
Actually oddone you sound quite bigoted towards those who hold a protected belief.

Doodledog

*Or maybe - in the case of public toilets or changing rooms anyway - we could have cubicles-only, with floor to ceiling doors and internal wash basins? And no communal area.*

I don't know if that would work. But it would prevent anyone from having to present any form of ID, and allow for individual privacy.
This is always put forward as a solution, and yes, it is a good idea in some ways, but it would only work in new builds, which amount to a small percentage of buildings as a whole.

Older buildings often have neither space nor plumbing to do this successfully, and a rule saying that only suitable buildings need to have such facilities would be a sop to the real concerns of many women. Most universities would be exempt, as would many office blocks, listed buildings, theatres and pubs and restaurants in older buildings.

This isn't quite true. One of the oldest buildings in our city had a makeover recently and has single cubicle toilets now. New university buildings have the same provision. Single cubicles, some indicating male, some female and some either, with a communal waiting and washing area. I know quite a few cafes with one toilet that is used by everyone.
Listing usually doesn't extend into areas where alterations have already taken place, as they have for toilet provision so it shouldn't prevent redevelopment.

Mollygo

Accusations of bigotry are always used in discussions about TW.
The bigotry, if it exists, is two way.

The bigots who think TW lying about, their sex is wrong, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

The bigots who think it’s OK for TW to lie about, their sex, when they use that lie to impact on the lives and well-being of females and the lives of those TW who previously existed unnoticed and in peace.

And Galaxy, that sounds right.
^Actually oddone you sound quite bigoted towards those who hold a protected belief.^

I thought you considered people should have their beliefs respected Mollygo.
Transwomen believe they are women. They are not lying.
Their belief is as valid as any other.

Yeah, there will always be exceptions, but they don’t render the rule invalid. Cafes are often converted shops and the fact that they have one loo used by everyone is testament to the fact that alternatives are difficult if not impossible in many buildings, which is my point.

OddOne

... "pure hatred", "bigotry" ?

Here's a couple of examples of both states of mind. And no-one on here is exhibiting such hatred or bigotry.

There are more, but I don't want to go over the top. As you have done.

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23268023.police-probe-decapitate-terfs-sign-trans-rally/

youtu.be/lsw3pdpxf64?t=37

It is a waste of time and effort to keep explaining biological reality to certain posters, and if it wasn’t so important their wriggling would be quite entertaining. But for a tiny group the erasure of women seems to be their aim and we simply can’t let that happen by default. So we have to keep on responding in the hope that some of the very closed mind may open a bit. But I won’t hold my breath.

Glorianny
I thought you considered people should have their beliefs respected Mollygo.

I’m not sure how you translated that into respecting liars, but you do like to twist things, so . . .

Transwomen believe they are women. They are not lying.
If you believe a lie, that doesn’t make it the truth.

Believing you have changed sex is believing a lie

Are you saying that you think everyone who believes their own lies should have that belief respected?
Like the martial arts expert who punched a woman in the face for questioning his presence in a female safe space believed he felt threatened by her? Do you respect his belief?

You’ll be a favourite with some politicians if you do.

I believe this, because it’s the truth.
Transwomen are transwomen.
Transwomen are not women, because Women are Adult Human Females.
Transwomen are male.

You can choose whether you respect the truth or respect liars.

Mollygo

Glorianny
I thought you considered people should have their beliefs respected Mollygo.

I’m not sure how you translated that into respecting liars, but you do like to twist things, so . . .

Transwomen believe they are women. They are not lying.
If you believe a lie, that doesn’t make it the truth.

Believing you have changed sex is believing a lie

Are you saying that you think everyone who believes their own lies should have that belief respected?
Like the martial arts expert who punched a woman in the face for questioning his presence in a female safe space believed he felt threatened by her? Do you respect his belief?

You’ll be a favourite with some politicians if you do.

I believe this, because it’s the truth.
Transwomen are transwomen.
Transwomen are not women, because Women are Adult Human Females.
Transwomen are male.

You can choose whether you respect the truth or respect liars.

I see we are back on total focus on transwomen again.
As I have said before according to this theory therefore, transmen are women and should be allowed full access to women's facilities. so people looking like men will be found in all facilities. Will you feel safer then Mollygo?

Glorianny proves my point admirably. Not what she intended, I suspect.

GrannySomerset

Glorianny proves my point admirably. Not what she intended, I suspect.

I'm not erasing women. I'm simply questioning a philosophy that says someone supports women, but doesn't recognise their right to identify as they wish.
Some people want to identify as men. Biological reality may insist they are women, but they don't want to be women they want to be known as men. Why do you insist they must be? And how is that not erasing people you think are women?

My beliefs make absolutely no difference to the reality. If I chant the mantra there sex will remain the same I am afraid.

Galaxy

My beliefs make absolutely no difference to the reality. If I chant the mantra there sex will remain the same I am afraid.

Likewise.
I haven’t, despite Glorianny’s twisting and twirling, insisted that people can’t be what they want to be known as. Although 2m man dressed as a baby who has been thrown out of nurseries and is shouting about discrimination is pushing the boundaries IMO.
What I do believe and have frequently reiterated is that those TW and TM, who use what they want to be known as to cheat and lie their way into sports and spaces which are for specific sexes which don’t match their own, is wrong.

*Glorianny, if someone broke into your house claiming that they believe they’re entitled to share warmth and comfort and conveniences of your life, would you respect that belief?

Of course you would! 🤣🤣🤣 You’d welcome them in with open arms and share your hard earned wealth with any such, because in your view their belief must be respected even though it’s a lie.

Once again Glorianny, if you’re happy to accept their lies and the lies told by those who support the liars then go ahead.
Crying it can’t be enforced is no excuse for accepting a lie or for lying.

The thing is it boils down to this, the problem for me and I suspect many other women - is men.

Male violence towards women is embedded in societies all over the world.

Of course, misogynist men don't always go so far as to commit acts of violence against women, but they harass, intimidate, challenge, and provoke. Nearly every woman in surveys conducted has admitted to being, at the very lest, the subject of unwanted and unasked for attention by men.

If you believe, as I do, that transwomen are inherently male, then they will always potentially be a threat in our confined and 'intimate' spaces. And that is why we are not discussing transmen, because they are not a threat to women.

I don't know what the answer is, other than transwomen being banned completely from these spaces. Even if they've had their 'bits' cut off. Sarah Jane Baker - without testicles - deems that the answer to a problem is violence against the offender - a typical male response (and one cheered on by the crowd).

Men have created this problem, and women are once again expected to either deal with it or accept it.

Why should men not be told that they must accept the appearance of transwomen in their toilets and changing rooms instead, and they must refrain from committing acts of violence or intimidation towards them? Why can't we put the onus on men to solve the problem that they have created? Let them deal with it. Let them learn to respect each others' rights instead of compromising women and making it our problem?

Well said, Dickens.

And yes, GrannySomerset - your case is proven

Dickens

The thing is it boils down to this, the problem for me and I suspect many other women - is men.

Male violence towards women is embedded in societies all over the world.

Of course, misogynist men don't always go so far as to commit acts of violence against women, but they harass, intimidate, challenge, and provoke. Nearly every woman in surveys conducted has admitted to being, at the very lest, the subject of unwanted and unasked for attention by men.

If you believe, as I do, that transwomen are inherently male, then they will always potentially be a threat in our confined and 'intimate' spaces. And that is why we are not discussing transmen, because they are not a threat to women.

I don't know what the answer is, other than transwomen being banned completely from these spaces. Even if they've had their 'bits' cut off. Sarah Jane Baker - without testicles - deems that the answer to a problem is violence against the offender - a typical male response (and one cheered on by the crowd).

Men have created this problem, and women are once again expected to either deal with it or accept it.

Why should men not be told that they must accept the appearance of transwomen in their toilets and changing rooms instead, and they must refrain from committing acts of violence or intimidation towards them? Why can't we put the onus on men to solve the problem that they have created? Let them deal with it. Let them learn to respect each others' rights instead of compromising women and making it our problem?

But transwomen are subjected to the same if not more violence than natal women. The concept seems to be "I think you are a man therefore you must take your chances". I can't see how that is at all feminist.
If someone looks like a woman they will necessarily be treated by society like a woman. They will suffer the same lack of opportunities, the same restrictions and the same levels of violence and assault.
I don't suppose any violent man asks a woman, "Are you natal? or Do you have a gender recognition certificate?. Because if you are one I might not bash you, but if you are the other I will."

One of the things that is being said about transwomen is that they have brought back to the feminist movement an acceptance of violence that hasn't been seen since the suffragette's bomb attacks. It isn't something I'm entirely comfortable with. But having decided sometime ago, when asked how far I thought I would have gone to get the vote, that I would have taken part in arson and bombing, I think it's possible I would be more active if I was more personally involved in this. So I don't think we can just say that transwomen being violent is a masculine thing, some women have used violence before.
We should remember Edith Garrud www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34425615

Violence against women be they natal or trans is our problem and some of us stand side by side with our trans sisters. Or would some people be happy if men stopped bashing natal women but carried on bashing transwomen? Not our problem has never been a reasonable response to any violence..

Violence against women be they natal or trans . . .
Women don’t need a qualifier.
Trans women are not women.
The only ones who wish to harm transwomen are men-and transwomen are men.

Or would some people be happy if men stopped bashing natal women but carried on bashing transwomen.

You get more and more ludicrous. . .

Possibly the some people you know would be happy to do that. Not my experience. I prefer that men stopped bashing women(AHF) and stop bashing other men including TW as well.

(I shouldn’t have to add AHF, but since some people believe the lie that males can be women)

Glorianny - there is no valid way to compare male violence with the violence some women show. Generally,Men are more violent, they’re bigger and stronger so have the potential to intimidate and terrify women.