Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Glorianny You tell us transpeople are a tiny minority, far too few to have their own category, and there is no unfair advantage. When I tell you the only two transwomen in a cycle race take 1st and 2nd place, pushing the female competitor into 3rd place you don't find that bemusing, and just ignore it. Two minority competitors with male bodies just happen to beat all the other competitors that had female bodies.

Of course minorities must be treated equally. Other competitors compete in their biological sex class, equality means transpeople compete in their biological sex class subject to the same substance abuse rules as everyone else. Equal treatment not special treatment. I'd have loved to be good at sport, but I wasn't. Nobody suggested it was unfair because I didn't get to compete, and maybe with performance enhancing drugs I might have got better?
All or virtually all transwomen have previously competed as men in the men's category. Mostly they haven't gained any great degree of success in that category, mediocre results for the most part.
In the paralympics people with various disabilities compete in categories that try to equate their disability. There are very many categories to accommodate this. As far as I'm aware they are still then divided by biological sex. Is this also unfair to transwomen?

Glorianny’s latest . . . I love to see you wriggle G/T.

If Mollygo had asked the children in year 6 who would be the first three in a class race they would probably all say the same three names.
They might well, but it wouldn’t be because the competitors were cheating.

She’s now going to use this to justify that in a race with female and two male cheats, if you asked who would take first and second place, people would know it would be “the two male cheats”.

Trans Women Are Transwomen, Glorianny.
They are male.
@13:21 I answered your question
What are transmen?
I’m not sure why you asked it, but in case you missed the answer, or you truly didn’t know, here it is again.

Trans Men Are Transmen.
They are female.

Taking drugs to enable participation in sport is cheating.

Rosie, your example of the paralympics is a good one. It is allowing disabled people to compete against others with disabilities in the hope that the gap between their physical abilities and those of able-bodied competitors will be narrowed.

Glorianny do you object to the paralypics, and if not, what do you see as the difference between separating competitors by physical ability in that case and doing the same in mainstream sport by grouping female competitors together?

As I see it there are really no clearly defined categories which can be designated for sport as a whole. And certainly the categories for the paralympics have not been without controversy.
But let's look at what has been attempted. If birth certificate sex is used as the regulations in some US states do, then transmen like Mack Beggs and women like Caster Semenya will be competing as women.
If as has been suggested some sort of chromosome test is applied this will impact mostly on undeveloped countries and on black women, where such tests will not be generally available, and women such as Caster Semenya will be raised and compete as girls and women, only to be designated men when they reach a higher level. This has already resulted in the suicide of an Indian swimmer, Pratima Gaonkar

One of the ideas being proposed is that the concept of banning transwomen from women's sport is in fact an example of the patriarchal nature of sport and the attitude to women. In that it is cismen who rule the sport and who seek to maintain the idea that women have weaker bodies and are less able to participate. I don't know if that is true, but I do know that ideas about what women are physically capable of doing has changed dramatically in the last 60 years. In the 1960s they were still judged as incapable of running a marathon.

I don't think banning transwomen will address any of the real issues in women's sport.

This time G/t says . . .
I don't think banning transwomen will address any of the real issues in women's sport.
Surely you aren’t saying we should not address one issue until they can all be addressed? Or then again maybe you are.

If it only addresses one issue and clears that up then it’s a start.

This one is easy.

Either cheating in sport is right or it isn’t.

Rebuttal of cheating applies across the board, for male or female competitors.
Taking drugs to improve chances of winning is cheating.
Identifying as a different sex to improve chances of winning is cheating.

Blaming it on patriarchy- which is correct because . . . Transwomen are male
But you saying that whilst you’re busy supporting that same patriarchy to let males compete in female sports is ludicrous.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I’m still waiting for your evidence of the host of transmen (transmen are women in case you still don’t know) who you imply are using their TM identity to cheat in male competitions.
Though I expect that’s another of your don't bother to read if you can’t answer times.🤣🤣🤣.

Mollygo

This time G/t says . . .
I don't think banning transwomen will address any of the real issues in women's sport.
Surely you aren’t saying we should not address one issue until they can all be addressed? Or then again maybe you are.

If it only addresses one issue and clears that up then it’s a start.

This one is easy.

Either cheating in sport is right or it isn’t.

Rebuttal of cheating applies across the board, for male or female competitors.
Taking drugs to improve chances of winning is cheating.
Identifying as a different sex to improve chances of winning is cheating.

Blaming it on patriarchy- which is correct because . . . Transwomen are male
But you saying that whilst you’re busy supporting that same patriarchy to let males compete in female sports is ludicrous.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I’m still waiting for your evidence of the host of transmen (transmen are women in case you still don’t know) who you imply are using their TM identity to cheat in male competitions.
Though I expect that’s another of your don't bother to read if you can’t answer times.🤣🤣🤣.

I have never said transmen are cheating in male competitions that's another figment of your imagination Mollygo.
If I have post the evidence.
If you want to debate with me please try to actually read what I say instead of inventing things

If you dont know the differences between men and women in terms of physical strength etc then I could see why you wouldnt understand sex segregation in sport.

Galaxy

If you dont know the differences between men and women in terms of physical strength etc then I could see why you wouldnt understand sex segregation in sport.

I understand what has been proposed as the reasons for women's weak bodies over the years, mostly by men.Many of these proved to be wrong. Like hysteria and the uterus moving round the body, or women being physically unsuited to running marathons. I see no reason to automatically assume they are right now.

But it isn't just about the difference between men and women is it? It's so much more complicated.

How would you implement sex segregation? By chromosome testing? Despite the fact that this will impact most on black woman from underdeveloped countries where they have always lived as women?

How would you implement sex segregation?
With a DNA swab.

Despite the fact that this will impact most on black woman from underdeveloped countries where they have always lived as women?
Absolutely. I don't understand why it would mostly impact black women, and I don't fully understand what 'living as a woman' means - surely that varies across cultures, and will be wildly different for people in developing countries as compared to developed ones?

In any case, it is possible to 'live as' something without being it, and it makes no sense to legislate based on the impact of a few isolated instances, however unfortunate they may be for the individuals concerned.

And have we had an answer to the question of how it is possible to 'carefully orchestrate' a sports day so that everyone wins, yet allowing male-bodied athletes to compete against women is not rigging the result?

By 'an answer', I mean apart from the wriggling about school sports not being the same as professional races. As you say, it is important to understand the principles of debate, which most definitely allow for analogies to be made for the purposes of argument. School sports days are a parallel - as I remember them, no, they are not, the same as the Olympics, but the principles of fairness are the same. In fact, one of the justifications for holding them is to teach children about concepts such as winning and losing, the joy of taking part and so on.

Glorianny One of the ideas being proposed is that the concept of banning transwomen from women's sport is in fact an example of the patriarchal nature of sport and the attitude to women. In that it is cismen who rule the sport and who seek to maintain the idea that women have weaker bodies and are less able to participate. I don't know if that is true, but I do know that ideas about what women are physically capable of doing has changed dramatically in the last 60 years. In the 1960s they were still judged as incapable of running a marathon.

The marathon as you correctly stated banned women until the 60s. Since then there have been many marathons where women have participated. In ones such as the London one the elite runners set off separately from the ordinary and fun runners. Additionally the men set off separately from the women. Both of these groups get to run unhindered by crowds of slower runners. The women's course record is 2.17.01, the men's is 2.02.37. There is not one course around the whole world where the female time comes close to the male time, but then you don't mind if females lose out to males do you? That you see transwomen as more worthy than females is the ultimate pandering to the patriarchy. Do you think the women just aren't trying hard enough, or could the male bodies the men are running with have an advantage over female bodies?

Incidentally there are tables that show USA boys can beat adult female record holders in every event in track and field. Perhaps you can show where females match or exceed the male times, distance, height etc. It can't surely be that no woman is training hard enough to compete equally with those male puberty, testosterone fuelled bodies?

Doodledog
Absolutely. I don't understand why it would mostly impact black women, and I don't fully understand what 'living as a woman' means - surely that varies across cultures, and will be wildly different for people in developing countries as compared to developed ones?

In any case, it is possible to 'live as' something without being it, and it makes no sense to legislate based on the impact of a few isolated instances, however unfortunate they may be for the individuals concerned.

A very good point, with which I totally agree.

What is patriarchal is the insistence that male-bodied people can just decide to impose themselves onto female sport.

Also - when you say 'one of the ideas being proposed' that the concept of banning transwomen. . . . is patriarchal', who is proposing this idea, please?

BBC online, today, reports that the FA is being urged to ban transgender players from women's football...'as it threatens the safety of women and girls.'

Glorianny If birth certificate sex is used as the regulations in some US states do, then transmen like Mack Beggs and women like Caster Semenya will be competing as women.

Given that our GRA allows for birth certificates to be changed from accurate records to works of fiction, I wholeheartedly agree birth certificates are not the way to go. Biological sex, as determined by DNA from a minimally invasive cheek swab will work every time.

All competitors should be subject to the same rules, and banned substances have to be banned for all, and not indulged in a special few. Mack Beggs should not have been allowed to compete while taking a listed substance which would have caused any of the other competitors to be immediately banned.

Doodledog

*How would you implement sex segregation?*
With a DNA swab.

Despite the fact that this will impact most on black woman from underdeveloped countries where they have always lived as women?
Absolutely. I don't understand why it would mostly impact black women, and I don't fully understand what 'living as a woman' means - surely that varies across cultures, and will be wildly different for people in developing countries as compared to developed ones?

In any case, it is possible to 'live as' something without being it, and it makes no sense to legislate based on the impact of a few isolated instances, however unfortunate they may be for the individuals concerned.

WellI would have thought it was obvious. If you are a black women born into a poor family in a remote location it is unlikely that there will be any facilities for a DNA swab. So if you have female genitalia you will be designated a woman. You will grow up as a girl, you will believe you are a girl. You will participate in women's sports. Then suddenly an authority will demand a DNA swab and insist you are a man. That means you can't continue to participate. If you can't see how racist and unequal such a policy is I despair. One Indian swimmer committed suicide because of such an incident.

^ it makes no sense to legislate based on the impact of a few isolated instances, however unfortunate they may be for the individuals concerned^
Well why bother legislating against transwomen then? It's just unfortunate for those who are beaten.

Rosie51

Glorianny One of the ideas being proposed is that the concept of banning transwomen from women's sport is in fact an example of the patriarchal nature of sport and the attitude to women. In that it is cismen who rule the sport and who seek to maintain the idea that women have weaker bodies and are less able to participate. I don't know if that is true, but I do know that ideas about what women are physically capable of doing has changed dramatically in the last 60 years. In the 1960s they were still judged as incapable of running a marathon.

The marathon as you correctly stated banned women until the 60s. Since then there have been many marathons where women have participated. In ones such as the London one the elite runners set off separately from the ordinary and fun runners. Additionally the men set off separately from the women. Both of these groups get to run unhindered by crowds of slower runners. The women's course record is 2.17.01, the men's is 2.02.37. There is not one course around the whole world where the female time comes close to the male time, but then you don't mind if females lose out to males do you? That you see transwomen as more worthy than females is the ultimate pandering to the patriarchy. Do you think the women just aren't trying hard enough, or could the male bodies the men are running with have an advantage over female bodies?

Incidentally there are tables that show USA boys can beat adult female record holders in every event in track and field. Perhaps you can show where females match or exceed the male times, distance, height etc. It can't surely be that no woman is training hard enough to compete equally with those male puberty, testosterone fuelled bodies?

No as with everything, things don't change overnight. There is no doubt though that women's bodies are changing. The concept of a waist which can be spanned by a man's hands is no longer the ideal. But it was at one time.
If women can now participate in marathons who is to say what future generations will achieve? It's very wrong to think today's standards will always exist, nothing is set in stone.

No need to despair just because I don't agree that your story is obvious. Aren't you being racist (and probably classist, to boot) to suggest that poor people everywhere will be unlikely to have easy access to DNA testing unless or until they are at the top of the sporting tree? Look at how many British people went onto Jeremy Kyle to get a DNA test to prove or disprove the paternity of their babies. If they were readily available to all people on all incomes, that wouldn't happen, surely?

Are you suggesting that athletes are tested as a matter of course at lower levels? TBH I don't have a clue, but I doubt it is left to the individual to sort it out, and it seems unlikely to be insisted on at local level. They will happen in supervised conditions, by the authorities at higher (International?) levels, or what's the point? Tests will be imposed, probably free of charge to the athletes, who in any case will have had to afford the flights, passports and so on, or be sponsored in some way. They will be applied equally to people of all colours and creeds, and someone who genuinely believes that they are female will be surprised, whatever colour they are, and however developed or otherwise is the country of their origin. Nothing racist about it.

You really are wandering into fantasy land in your determination to make a case for male-bodied people to erase women from sport😂. That's bad enough, but your suggestion that anyone who disagres with you is racist is scraping an already very well scraped barrel.

And who proposed the idea that disallowing transwomen or other male-bodied athletes to compete against women is patriarchal, please? The source makes an enormous difference to the credibility of statements like this.

You may have missed my post of 12:38:34, but an answer would help me to understand your line of thinking, and maybe save you from further despair at my inability to follow your labyrinthine attempts at justifying the erasure of women in sport.

.... your suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is racist is scraping an already very well scraped barrel yes it is Doodledog but maybe it's because intersectional feminists really believe that they, and they alone are concerned about fairness, inclusiveness, racial discrimination and equality for all, regardless of class, race and gender.

Glorianny No as with everything, things don't change overnight. There is no doubt though that women's bodies are changing. The concept of a waist which can be spanned by a man's hands is no longer the ideal. But it was at one time.
If women can now participate in marathons who is to say what future generations will achieve? It's very wrong to think today's standards will always exist, nothing is set in stone.

And this is your basis for denying women fairness now? How many years do you estimate before women's bodies evolve to match mens? Do remember women's bodies will still have to be constructed differently to allow the possible passage of a baby's head through their pelvis

Well why bother legislating against transwomen then? It's just unfortunate for those who are beaten.

Ah, so as long as it's only females that are being denied that's OK with you. Don't you realise one transwoman competitor will potentially negatively impact many, many female competitors? Lance Armstrong was ONE man who cheated dozens of others out of their rightful placements, medals, sponsorships. Do you think that was fair too? I know biology has you confused, but is maths also a mystery?

Smileless2012

^.... your suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is racist is scraping an already very well scraped barrel^ yes it is Doodledog but maybe it's because intersectional feminists really believe that they, and they alone are concerned about fairness, inclusiveness, racial discrimination and equality for all, regardless of class, race and gender.

White intersectional feminists often display a patriarchal, patronising attitude, particularly to black women, whom they seem to consider unable to articulate for themselves.

Doodledog

And who proposed the idea that disallowing transwomen or other male-bodied athletes to compete against women is patriarchal, please? The source makes an enormous difference to the credibility of statements like this.

You may have missed my post of 12:38:34, but an answer would help me to understand your line of thinking, and maybe save you from further despair at my inability to follow your labyrinthine attempts at justifying the erasure of women in sport.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jul/07/cisgender-female-athletes-solidarity-trans-athletes

Rosie51

Smileless2012

.... your suggestion that anyone who disagrees with you is racist is scraping an already very well scraped barrel yes it is Doodledog but maybe it's because intersectional feminists really believe that they, and they alone are concerned about fairness, inclusiveness, racial discrimination and equality for all, regardless of class, race and gender.

White intersectional feminists often display a patriarchal, patronising attitude, particularly to black women, whom they seem to consider unable to articulate for themselves.

Considering you have consistently misgendered Caster Semenya I think your view of what constitutes racism is flawed by your prejudice about gender.

Today 13:14 Rosie51

Glorianny If birth certificate sex is used as the regulations in some US states do, then transmen like Mack Beggs and women like Caster Semenya will be competing as women.

Given that our GRA allows for birth certificates to be changed from accurate records to works of fiction, I wholeheartedly agree birth certificates are not the way to go. Biological sex, as determined by DNA from a minimally invasive cheek swab will work every time.
Excellent suggestion Rosie51
Providing the tests are done on the spot and results are ready in minutes. Otherwise those desperate to win by cheating will already be working out ways to circumvent the system, with the same approval as some already give to cheating.