Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

OMG no one (except perhaps Doodledog) has proposed that year. 1 race against year 6. I did point out that sports days I have participated in were carefully orchestrated so that even the slowest have the opportunity of winning. I did point out that the fastest in one year group would overtake the slowest in at least one and probably two years above them. That's been ignored.
Carry on with your prejudice

As for a trans category with one entrant. That's the whole point. Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. Sport needs to recognise them and to accommodate them.
And using the designation of birth sex doesn't work.

So you are now agreeing testosterone does give benefits that would be unfair on female competitors!
I said no such thing Rosie51 I asked for your views on a hypothetical situation. Thanks for the answer which seems to indicate that you think the benefits of testosterone are limited. So a transman who built up muscle and strength might maintain that strength and still compete as a woman.

I really don't think that the solution to this is as clear as some have indicated and there is research which indicates that the solution will not be a ruling for sport as a whole but individual rules for different events.
It certainly won't prevent transpeople participating on an equal basis in sport as some seem to require or restrict them to trans only events.

It's gone back to sex segregated sports in many cases now as more bodies realise the madness of it, there are still a few, but I would guess legal actions will solve those issues.

I did not propose anything of the sort. Please stop twisting what I say.

I pointed out that allowing male-bodied athletes to compete against female ones is akin to doing so, and from other comments in my posts I would have thought it was obvious that I would not support unfairness like that at any level. That is not prejudice, it is about ensuring fairness.

Of course the fastest young children will overtake the slowest older ones - that is not the point. The point is to ensure that the race is not rigged by having the strong race the weak overall. Outliers will always be the exceptions that prove the rule. In this case, the fact that Glorianny's school 'carefully orchestrated' the process proves without doubt that tinkering with who competes against whom will affect the result.

I knew G/T wouldn’t like that analogy, but unfortunately those were the classes I was teaching yesterday.
The analogy (because I know Glorianny will find it difficult to understand) is that making females compete against cheating males is as unfair as racing Y6 (or Y5, Y4 etc) against Y1.
It’s nothing to do with age really. It’s to do with the fact that Y6 have advantages that Y1 can’t possibly have, in the same way that males having passed through puberty have advantages that females can’t have.

Actually, Glorianny’s tinkering is a perfect example of what TW are attempting to do-*twist the system to suit themselves* but her prejudices won’t let her accept that.
Males are not female.
Carry on with your prejudice Glorianny.
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Glorianny I said no such thing Rosie51

These are your own words exactly quoted
If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him?

If you don't believe testosterone gives the female transitioner any benefit why pose the question? It would be like me asking if chanting magic mantras changes one's biological sex.

You can squirm, you can twist people's words, but the facts are people compete with sexed bodies, not mantras, and it is impossible to change your biological sex. If it were possible don't you think a lot of females in Iran would be taking advantage so they could go to school, work, receive medical treatment?

Mollygo

I knew G/T wouldn’t like that analogy, but unfortunately those were the classes I was teaching yesterday.
The analogy (because I know Glorianny will find it difficult to understand) is that making females compete against cheating males is as unfair as racing Y6 (or Y5, Y4 etc) against Y1.
It’s nothing to do with age really. It’s to do with the fact that Y6 have advantages that Y1 can’t possibly have, in the same way that males having passed through puberty have advantages that females can’t have.

Actually, Glorianny’s tinkering is a perfect example of what TW are attempting to do-*twist the system to suit themselves* but her prejudices won’t let her accept that.
Males are not female.
Carry on with your prejudice Glorianny.
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

And what are transmen Mollygo?

Rosie51

Glorianny I said no such thing Rosie51

These are your own words exactly quoted
If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him?

If you don't believe testosterone gives the female transitioner any benefit why pose the question? It would be like me asking if chanting magic mantras changes one's biological sex.

You can squirm, you can twist people's words, but the facts are people compete with sexed bodies, not mantras, and it is impossible to change your biological sex. If it were possible don't you think a lot of females in Iran would be taking advantage so they could go to school, work, receive medical treatment?

It's a hypothetical proposal Rosie51
If something is hypothetical, it is based on possible ideas or situations rather than actual ones
Honestly what is the point of debating with people who don't understand basic debating practices?

AS for the Iran statement you really don't understand that there are more women in education in Iran than in any other Arab country. They have more women now in medical training than any time in the past
Ten years ago only 12.5% of Iranian medical students were women, and the government responded by setting a goal that half of new students would be female. Today, one-third of the 22 326 students in Iran's 38 medical schools are women.
The education is segregated of course and human rights are restricted, but let's not make wrongful accusations.

Glorianny says . . .
And what are transmen Mollygo?

Are you really pretending you don’t know, Glorianny. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Trans Men Are Transmen.
Transmen are female.

You still haven’t provided the evidence of all those TM who have cheated by entering make competitions and depriving males of their hard earned medals. Is that because . . .

Glorianny

AS for the Iran statement you really don't understand that there are more women in education in Iran than in any other Arab country. They have more women now in medical training than any time in the past
Ten years ago only 12.5% of Iranian medical students were women, and the government responded by setting a goal that half of new students would be female. Today, one-third of the 22 326 students in Iran's 38 medical schools are women.
The education is segregated of course and human rights are restricted, but let's not make wrongful accusations.

Of course it was a brain slip I meant Afghanistan.

It's a hypothetical proposal Rosie51
If something is hypothetical, it is based on possible ideas or situations rather than actual ones
Honestly what is the point of debating with people who don't understand basic debating practices?

Back to the personal insults again, so predictable.
So now you're saying that testosterone will not change the female who takes it, give them greater muscle mass etc. Begs the question, why take it at all?

As for a trans category with one entrant. That's the whole point. Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify I never said there was one entrant, there were no entrants because they wanted to race in the female category despite being males. As for transpeople being a minority it didn't stop 1st and 2nd places going to transwomen with the female coming in 3rd in that recent cycle race. Oh how stunning and brave! The two minority entrants bagged first and second places.

If a trans man during the course of transitioning has taken hormones, regardless of whether or not their hormone levels are at the acceptable level because they've taken a break in order to compete against women, they should not be allowed to compete against females.

I don't understand why you have a problem with that Glorianny as you've acknowledged that previously taken hormones can benefit the recipient.

Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. That does not give trans women right to compete against women, or trans men who have had the benefit of hormonal treatment to compete against women.

I thought hormones are drugs. Why is it suddenly OK for drug takers to compete
in sport?
Is it now OK for females competing in female sports , or males who compete in male sports to take drugs before, or during competing?
Or is it just that TW who want to cheat are a special case?

Honestly what is the point of debating with people who don't understand basic debating practices?
😂😂😂😂😂

Given that it was possible to ‘carefully orchestrate’ a school sports day to ensure that everyone won something, how can you argue that male-bodied people racing women is ok?

Smileless2012

If a trans man during the course of transitioning has taken hormones, regardless of whether or not their hormone levels are at the acceptable level because they've taken a break in order to compete against women, they should not be allowed to compete against females.

I don't understand why you have a problem with that Glorianny as you've acknowledged that previously taken hormones can benefit the recipient.

Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. That does not give trans women right to compete against women, or trans men who have had the benefit of hormonal treatment to compete against women.

Insisting that TWAW was always going to cause a problem in areas where biological sex is relevant.

It might matter little - or not at all - in (for example) the Arts and Entertainment world, or other social settings, but it certainly matters in sport, and often in medicine, and always in the context of women-only spaces.

A minority is demanding that the majority adapt to them - to the disadvantage of that majority. Who are women. And, as usual, it is men demanding that women accommodate them.

Doodledog

Given that it was possible to ‘carefully orchestrate’ a school sports day to ensure that everyone won something, how can you argue that male-bodied people racing women is ok?

Because competition for children is not always advisable or good for them. Especially when it means some children never get the chance to win. If Mollygo had asked the children in year 6 who would be the first three in a class race they would probably all say the same three names. Children are not professional sports people. Trying to apply the same rules to a school sports day as to an olympic event is not only impossible it is unwise.
But some people will resort to wild comparisons to justify the unjustifiable.

Dickens

Smileless2012

If a trans man during the course of transitioning has taken hormones, regardless of whether or not their hormone levels are at the acceptable level because they've taken a break in order to compete against women, they should not be allowed to compete against females.

I don't understand why you have a problem with that Glorianny as you've acknowledged that previously taken hormones can benefit the recipient.

Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. That does not give trans women right to compete against women, or trans men who have had the benefit of hormonal treatment to compete against women.

Insisting that TWAW was always going to cause a problem in areas where biological sex is relevant.

It might matter little - or not at all - in (for example) the Arts and Entertainment world, or other social settings, but it certainly matters in sport, and often in medicine, and always in the context of women-only spaces.

A minority is demanding that the majority adapt to them - to the disadvantage of that majority. Who are women. And, as usual, it is men demanding that women accommodate them.

No a minority is asking for equal treatment. It is one of the basic elements of human rights.
The UN pledge on human rights
I will respect your rights regardless of who you are. I will uphold your rights even when I disagree with you
When anyone’s human rights are denied, everyone's rights are undermined, so I will STAND UP
I will raise my voice. I will take action. I will use my rights to stand up for your rights
Minorities have the right to be treated equally.
Or in the words of Fanny Lou Harmer
Nobody's free until everybody's free

I better confess - I don’t have a problem with children who are athletic winning races. Some of those children will be dyslexic, neuro diverse, sad or lonely, why should their natural ability be diminished?
Yes of course I understand some children will never win a race or be gifted in football, cricket, gymnastics or whatever. They may have other talents - or none. Good schools work with all their children

No Glorianny the minority are not asking for equal treatment. They are asking for special treatment at the expense of equal treatment of the majority.

Nobody's free until everybody's free I agree but that doesn't mean that some are entitled to be more free than others.

Iam64

I better confess - I don’t have a problem with children who are athletic winning races. Some of those children will be dyslexic, neuro diverse, sad or lonely, why should their natural ability be diminished?
Yes of course I understand some children will never win a race or be gifted in football, cricket, gymnastics or whatever. They may have other talents - or none. Good schools work with all their children

Of course they do which is why there are usually events which good runners can compete in at other events or sports. Sports day in primary schools is for everyone. Not just for the good. Sports and exercise is for everyone and no child should be put off because they don't stand a chance of winning, Which is why we grouped children and let them run with those of a similar ability. I don't suppose you would suggest that the dyslexic shouldn't take part in anything which included the written word would you?

Which is why we grouped children and let them run with similar ability so why do you support trans women and trans men with the advantage of hormones, competing against women?

Well, the reality is the dyslexic children are more likely to be impacted by their difficulties with the written word. It’s all day, every day at school. Sports day is a couple of times a year. My 7 year old grandson is good at PE and runs well. He hates football. He is dyslexic so reading writing spelling is hard for him. It’s in every lesson other than PE. It’s important he feels he’s good at something.
These issues affect all of us. Your critical challenging patronising responses don’t develop debate, they shut it down

It is not equal treatment for men to participate in women's sports, why on earth would you think that. If it is the likes of Daley Thompson and David Beckham have suffered discrimination untold. It is not a human right for men to participate in female sport.
Am I actually having to write these words?

Glorianny

The whole point of the women's category in sport is to exclude the male advantage.

If you allow TW to compete in that category, then the principle is negated because women will be at a disadvantage.

Everyone has a right to partake in sport. Does that mean TW can gate crash into a discipline and disadvantage that group? Is that their human right - to invalidate the purpose of the category, one that was created to establish fairness in that field?

Why is the TW's right more authentic than a woman's right in this instance?

Galaxy

It is not equal treatment for men to participate in women's sports, why on earth would you think that. If it is the likes of Daley Thompson and David Beckham have suffered discrimination untold. It is not a human right for men to participate in female sport.
Am I actually having to write these words?

Am I actually having to write these words?

Looks like it.

The human right in sport is to be free to partake in it. That does not mean that anyone can compete in any sport on a whim. If it did, we might just as well allow a male heavyweight boxer to compete against a female bantam or lightweight. That is what complete freedom means - it means doing away with the categories that were created to prevent unfair advantage.

The non sense of being compelled to accept that a man is a woman because he believes he feels like one has created this anomaly. One in which his rights become paramount.