Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Exactly, Rosie.

You are the one bringing race into this, Glorianny, and whether or not black women athletes are prepared to speak out in the current climate is not the point. They are still disadvantaged by being forced to compete against men, whether they put their heads above the parapet or not. And whether they have done so or not has no bearing on Smileless' comment.

How you have the nerve to comment on people's ability to debate when you resort to personal attacks like this on a regular basis is beyond me.

Thank you Doodledog and Rosie. I challenge you Gloriannny to give just one example that substantiates your accusation that I have "no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen".

It is because of my sympathy for all sportswomen that I do not want to see anymore of them denied their rightful place in their particular field denied them by biological men.

It seems to have escaped your notice that until TRA's started throwing the weight around by demanding 'rights' that so far despite being asked countless times, no one's been able to explain exactly what rights they are being denied, there was no issue with those who simply want to live their lives in peace.

Those who do, wouldn't dream of pushing their way into women's sports. They wouldn't dream of flaunting their penises (if they still have them of course) in front of women in changing rooms.

They are not the ones who threaten to rape women to death. Threaten the lives of women in the public domain and their families, who speak against their outrageous demands. Hurl accusations of transphobia and racism at those who are neither.

They are not the ones who push themselves into a lesbian speed dating event and expect to be welcomed by women who want relationships with other women, as lesbians.

All people matter to me Glorianny. I do not strive to put the welfare and well being of one group of people above another. But you do.

What if I were to give an example of a black female athlete who has spoken against having to compete against males? Are you suggesting that their objection should be taken more seriously than a white athlete's objection because they are black? Is there no end to your racist jibes regardless of how you attempt to to disguise them?

You disappoint me Glorianny, you really do and I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

Rosie51

Glorianny You cannot possibly slur Smileless on the basis of whether a black athlete has spoken up or not about not wanting to compete against males, something over which she has no control.
You are a total disgrace and should hang your head in shame.

Oh yes, G can and G will, and the likelihood of G being ashamed of supporting male cheating over female honesty is fairly remote.
Since G only ever quotes CS or males raised as women in remote villages, I would imagine they would be happy to compete in female sports.
If we just take one does that mean G is saying that one would be allowed to speak for all and the others would just have to shut up?
How will we know that the one black sportswoman G mentions will actually be female?

Glorianny, as you put it, It is evident that you have no sympathy or understanding for sportswomen but really some natal women must matter to you.

I’ve taken out the word black, because I feel it’s important to have sympathy for all sports women (AHF) whether you limit your sympathy to a particular group or only males who claim to be women
Trans Women Are Transwomen Glorianny.

I’m not quoting the whole of DoodleDog’s post at 14:41, but it would be well worth rereading.
Sport- supporting cheating is incomprehensible to most people and males competing in female competitions is cheating.
I like DD’s suggestion that toilets are trickier, but they weren’t until the actions of some TW made it so. Those TW making it obvious it obvious that they are males or carrying out activities like upskirting or taking selfies and proclaiming that they are males in toilets have made it difficult for all TW.

Doodledog

Exactly, Rosie.

You are the one bringing race into this, Glorianny, and whether or not black women athletes are prepared to speak out in the current climate is not the point. They are still disadvantaged by being forced to compete against men, whether they put their heads above the parapet or not. And whether they have done so or not has no bearing on Smileless' comment.

How you have the nerve to comment on people's ability to debate when you resort to personal attacks like this on a regular basis is beyond me.

So black women haven't said anything but you imagine you have the right to speak for them
I suggest you investigate racial microaggressions. One of which includes these words
Denial of individual racism
A statement made when Whites
deny their racial biases
“I’m not racist. I have several Black
friends.
I am immune to racism because I
have friends of color.
As a woman, I know what you go
through as a racial minority
Your racial oppression is no different
than my gender oppression. I can’t
be a racist. I’m like you
sph.umn.edu/site/docs/hewg/microaggressions.pdf
Then think a bit

Smileless2012

Thank you Doodledog and Rosie. I challenge you Gloriannny to give just one example that substantiates your accusation that I have "no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen".

It is because of my sympathy for all sportswomen that I do not want to see anymore of them denied their rightful place in their particular field denied them by biological men.

It seems to have escaped your notice that until TRA's started throwing the weight around by demanding 'rights' that so far despite being asked countless times, no one's been able to explain exactly what rights they are being denied, there was no issue with those who simply want to live their lives in peace.

Those who do, wouldn't dream of pushing their way into women's sports. They wouldn't dream of flaunting their penises (if they still have them of course) in front of women in changing rooms.

They are not the ones who threaten to rape women to death. Threaten the lives of women in the public domain and their families, who speak against their outrageous demands. Hurl accusations of transphobia and racism at those who are neither.

They are not the ones who push themselves into a lesbian speed dating event and expect to be welcomed by women who want relationships with other women, as lesbians.

All people matter to me Glorianny. I do not strive to put the welfare and well being of one group of people above another. But you do.

What if I were to give an example of a black female athlete who has spoken against having to compete against males? Are you suggesting that their objection should be taken more seriously than a white athlete's objection because they are black? Is there no end to your racist jibes regardless of how you attempt to to disguise them?

You disappoint me Glorianny, you really do and I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

As you have accused Caster Semenya of various things including a veiled reference to the fact that she and her partner have children I'm afraid I have little belief in your ability to decide what is fair or just.
She has always been referred to by the term "she", has always been classed as a woman by sports and courts, but you prefer to refer to her as male-bodied. How does that show sympathy or understanding? It shows a willingness to ignore her physical attributes in order to promote unseen masculine factors which have little relevance in every day life, but which you choose to highlight in order to denigrate her.
Now your posts may be generated by your anti-trans stance or by racism. or simply in ignorance, I really wouldn't know which, but they certainly show no support for the numbers of black sportswomen who like CS are trapped in a discriminatory system which has its roots deep in the history of white colonialism.

www.sbnation.com/2020/4/20/21227661/caster-semenya-world-athletics-regulation-body-racism

Keep going Glorianny.
You endorse males cheating and lying, so really, whatever you say is set against your support of that dishonesty.
If males are lying and cheating, it doesn’t matter about colour or race, height, weight or appearance.
If that lying and cheating and dishonesty impacts of females and you STILL support it, how can you justify casting aspersions on other females who don’t endorse that dishonesty?
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Seriously? Apart from the ongoing condescension, the idea that you are asking me to 'think a bit' about my racism is deeply ironic coming from someone who believes she can speak for all people of colour.

I have no intention of finding a black athlete to quote, as she would be one black athlete, and I refuse to sink to your level on that one.

I don't know what is so difficult for you to grasp - it doesn't matter how people 'identify'. What matters, when it comes to sport, is biology. It matters in other areas too, but in sport there is absolutely no wriggle room, however accommodating people may wish to be. Males competing against females gives the males the advantage, however they identify, and however they 'live as' the way women in their culture live.

I asked upthread whether you realised that black people come from all over the world, and have far more differences than similarities, but as ever, the difficult question was ignored, and you resorted to slurs and insults. Nobody, including you, can speak for all people of colour, and to believe that you can is not only typically arrogant but deluded.

I think you have the wrong poster Glorianny. Without trawling back through the thread to check, I'm pretty confident that I've made no reference to CS and her partner having children, veiled or otherwise. If I am wrong then show me where.

Once again you are accusing me of being racist and anti trans; evidence please. Not your opinion but evidence.

Doodledog

Seriously? Apart from the ongoing condescension, the idea that you are asking me to 'think a bit' about my racism is deeply ironic coming from someone who believes she can speak for all people of colour.

I have no intention of finding a black athlete to quote, as she would be one black athlete, and I refuse to sink to your level on that one.

I don't know what is so difficult for you to grasp - it doesn't matter how people 'identify'. What matters, when it comes to sport, is biology. It matters in other areas too, but in sport there is absolutely no wriggle room, however accommodating people may wish to be. Males competing against females gives the males the advantage, however they identify, and however they 'live as' the way women in their culture live.

I asked upthread whether you realised that black people come from all over the world, and have far more differences than similarities, but as ever, the difficult question was ignored, and you resorted to slurs and insults. Nobody, including you, can speak for all people of colour, and to believe that you can is not only typically arrogant but deluded.

I really don't speak for all black people Doodledog I have never claimed to do so, it is simply something you have accused me of. I am just listening to the voices of black people and being informed by them.

If you choose not to do so that is up to you.

Had you read the link I gave you, you would have learned (as I did) that some people think there are differences in hormone levels between black people and white people. I don't know if this is true. I certainly appreciate that much of our criticism of black people is deeply rooted in our history and examining our opinions about any issue to do with race is essential.

You listen to the voice of some people of colour, and so do I. The difference is that you assume that this gives your opinion more credibility than others', whereas I see it as it is - I speak to some POC, who represent just that.

You can post as many links to articles about hormone levels etc as you like - it won't alter the fact that male-bodied athletes competing against female ones is unfair, and you are sounding increasingly desperate in your attempts to deny that.

Hormone level-yet another excuse for allowing males to cheat in sports competitions.
Well done Glorianny.
Do you believe that males should be allowed to cheat by competing against females.

Yes

You.

And bring in hormone levels in different races and use it as an excuse to back up your support of dishonesty.

Do it would seem.

If the DNA indicates male, then it is dishonest to claim the right to compete in female competitions.
If males identified by DNA, have long legs or big hands, or naturally higher or lower hormone levels, they are still male.
If females identified by DNA, have long legs, big hands higher or lower hormone levels, they are female.

Trans Women Are Transwomen Glorianny. Transwomen are male.

Doodledog

You listen to the voice of some people of colour, and so do I. The difference is that you assume that this gives your opinion more credibility than others', whereas I see it as it is - I speak to some POC, who represent just that.

You can post as many links to articles about hormone levels etc as you like - it won't alter the fact that male-bodied athletes competing against female ones is unfair, and you are sounding increasingly desperate in your attempts to deny that.

I'm not desperate. I wonder can you be desperate and condescending? Doesn't the latter suggest a level of confidence?

I've asked for contrary opinions and you have given me none.
Did your read the racial microaggression statement? You've just used exactly their example.

Read the links or not it doesn't matter to me if you prefer to maintain your views rather than read anything which might cause you to question them.

I do question my views. I am very open to doing so, when I am insulted, slurred and spoken to as though I am a slow-witted child, I tend to close down.

I am very aware that the (numerous) qualifications I have in Equal Opps were taken years ago, and that thinking changes, and am at pains not to defend beliefs simply because I hold them, if that makes sense. I spent years teaching staff development courses on EOs, as it was then called (EDI, nowadays) and often came across older people who didn't question their views because they felt that they must be right because they were well-intentioned. I don't think (and I do hope) that I have not joined their number nowadays.

I am not trying to shoehorn bits of theory or examples from the Internet (which can be mined to find a reason to believe or disbelieve pretty much anything) - I just speak as I find, and whereas I don't think for a minute that you will believe it, I am fairly well-informed - enough to be conscious of both confirmation bias and the Dunning-Kruger effect, at least.

I can't be arsed with Gotchas and point-scoring though, and not will I be told to find evidence of something I believe to be offensive (ie one person of colour saying something that is assumed to be representative of a whole 'racial group'). I note that you still haven't commented on the fact that there are more differences than similarities between, say, a Sudanese nomad and a London-based lawyer (or myriad other combinations of disparate groups of people of colour). how can you talk about 'living as a woman' in that context, when there are so many very different ways of doing so.

Wonderfully put Glorianny.

It doesn't matter to me if you prefer to maintain your views rather than read anything which might cause you to question them.

I can say exactly the same about you. But I have the truth about TW and sport on my side. I don’t have to trawl the internet for a smidgeon of so called proof.
Males in female competitions are cheats.

Trans Women are Transwomen.
Glorianny.
I notice you don’t refute the truth of that with any biological evidence, preferring instead to drag in all sorts of diversions, which don’t deny that truth, but avoid having to answer.

There is an interesting article in today's Telegraph. It is about anti-semitism, and as such is a dig at the Left of the Labour Party (much of which has now been expelled or has left). The whole thing is here*, but I've pasted the first half below:

For years now, those of us who warned of the devastating threat posed by the takeover of our institutions by woke ideologues were relentlessly attacked and ridiculed. There is no such thing as “woke”, we were assured by patronising Left-wingers, just “kind” people who “care” about others and who believe in “social justice”, fighting “prejudice”, “clarifying” history, embracing sexual “self-realisation”, “saving the planet” and promoting the fundamental “equality” of all human beings.

We were right, it turns out, and the centrist dads were spectacularly wrong. Voters now widely understand that the rise of extreme trans advocacy has led to the mutilation of many children and the erosion of women’s rights. Yet this is only one small part of the destructive ideological tsunami unleashed by woke fanatics. Our warnings, if anything, understated the scale of the problem, and in particular the authoritarian, even fascistic, nature of “critical race theory” and “postcolonial theory”, other key components of this demented way of thinking.

Take the West’s best universities, home of what used to be called political correctness. When questioned by a US Congressional committee, the heads of Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology all but refused to confirm that calling for the genocide of Jews would violate the universities’ code of conduct. It would “depend on the context”, they argued.

Remember, these are paranoid places obsessed with “microagressions”, where “truth” is subjective, where strict speech codes are imposed to prevent “offence”, where academics or students can be hounded out for “misgendering” somebody, and where conservative views are often equated with racism. But when it comes to Jew-hate – and only then – they pretend to believe in free speech. Racism is banned, but not if it is directed at Jews, or white people, or members of any group not deemed worthy of protection.

The double-standards are shocking, but they are not accidental, and they have also corrupted British universities. The woke ideology divides the world into oppressors and oppressed.

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, but I do believe that the crushing of debate, the bending of truth and blatant gaslighting, the melding of so-called 'gender' issues with race, sexuality and even environmentalism is happening, and with it is a very worrying trend towards totalitarian suppression of anything outside of an approved world view, which is turning more and more scary. As I've said before, the extreme right at the extreme left are equally oppressive, and the way the trans agenda operates is to pretend to be liberal and accepting, whilst actually taking rights from women and children, forwarding male privilege and crushing resistance either by 'cancellation' or violence. It's very concerning, and I can only hope that enough people see through it before it is too late.

*you will need to subscribe, or get a free subscription to read the whole thing. The free trial allows you to access X items a month, and they don't pester you.

Doodledog

There is an interesting article in today's Telegraph. It is about anti-semitism, and as such is a dig at the Left of the Labour Party (much of which has now been expelled or has left). The whole thing is here*, but I've pasted the first half below:

For years now, those of us who warned of the devastating threat posed by the takeover of our institutions by woke ideologues were relentlessly attacked and ridiculed. There is no such thing as “woke”, we were assured by patronising Left-wingers, just “kind” people who “care” about others and who believe in “social justice”, fighting “prejudice”, “clarifying” history, embracing sexual “self-realisation”, “saving the planet” and promoting the fundamental “equality” of all human beings.

We were right, it turns out, and the centrist dads were spectacularly wrong. Voters now widely understand that the rise of extreme trans advocacy has led to the mutilation of many children and the erosion of women’s rights. Yet this is only one small part of the destructive ideological tsunami unleashed by woke fanatics. Our warnings, if anything, understated the scale of the problem, and in particular the authoritarian, even fascistic, nature of “critical race theory” and “postcolonial theory”, other key components of this demented way of thinking.

Take the West’s best universities, home of what used to be called political correctness. When questioned by a US Congressional committee, the heads of Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology all but refused to confirm that calling for the genocide of Jews would violate the universities’ code of conduct. It would “depend on the context”, they argued.

Remember, these are paranoid places obsessed with “microagressions”, where “truth” is subjective, where strict speech codes are imposed to prevent “offence”, where academics or students can be hounded out for “misgendering” somebody, and where conservative views are often equated with racism. But when it comes to Jew-hate – and only then – they pretend to believe in free speech. Racism is banned, but not if it is directed at Jews, or white people, or members of any group not deemed worthy of protection.

The double-standards are shocking, but they are not accidental, and they have also corrupted British universities. The woke ideology divides the world into oppressors and oppressed.

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, but I do believe that the crushing of debate, the bending of truth and blatant gaslighting, the melding of so-called 'gender' issues with race, sexuality and even environmentalism is happening, and with it is a very worrying trend towards totalitarian suppression of anything outside of an approved world view, which is turning more and more scary. As I've said before, the extreme right at the extreme left are equally oppressive, and the way the trans agenda operates is to pretend to be liberal and accepting, whilst actually taking rights from women and children, forwarding male privilege and crushing resistance either by 'cancellation' or violence. It's very concerning, and I can only hope that enough people see through it before it is too late.

*you will need to subscribe, or get a free subscription to read the whole thing. The free trial allows you to access X items a month, and they don't pester you.

No one I know on the extreme left as you refer to it (I would argue what is now called extreme was simply left, until politics took a huge shift to the right leading to the appointment of Trump, Johnson, Braverman and Patel, not to mention the adulation of Farage) has ever advocated violence.
The weaponising of anti-semitism in political debates is one of the worst aspects of politics in the world today. But the discussion of the holocaust in universities was tackled in Alan Bennett's History Boys. There's the section dealing with that and an assessment here whatthehellisart.wordpress.com/2019/07/27/the-history-boys-and-the-holocaust/

Extremism does lead to injury and often to death, but the far right in politics is far more in ascendence than the far left. It's evident in the rise of fundamentalist religions, in political appointments,and in the language used about asylum seekers and migrants. The greatest number of terrorist threats in the US now comes from the Christian far right. The same people who Trump encouraged to storm the Capitol, with these words
Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer. And we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. And we’re going to have to fight much harder.
But apparently it's people on the left and woke philosophies we have to fear.
But then it is the Telegraph what would you expect?

That post was not about you, Glorianny. Just because you don't know anyone doing A B or C doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I should have realised that you would ignore the relevant bits of the post in favour of positioning the narrative to suit your politics. The point is surely that it doesn't matter whether the threat is from the right or the left - they are equally dangerous at the extremes, and very similar in their totalitarianism. Would you rather have lived under Stalin, Mao or Pinochet?

Posted too soon - the point is also that the techniques being used to control speech and even thought (mangling the language, 'cancelling', violence and so on) are typical of dictators of any stripe.

Thanks Doodledog. Interesting post, especially since Glorianny thought it was so important that I got to read it twice.

The problem with many of G’s posts especially re males competing as females, is that in endorsing that, she implies that the risk to females is unimportant, at the same time as saying we don’t care about “women” (she presumably means TW, as we’re expressing concern for all AHF, and TW are AHM).
Trans Women Are Transwomen, Glorianny.
They are male.

Putting TW needs in female competitions, above those of females is discriminating against females.
Putting females first in female competitions is not discriminating against TW, because TW are not female.

Doodledog

That post was not about you, Glorianny. Just because you don't know anyone doing A B or C doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I should have realised that you would ignore the relevant bits of the post in favour of positioning the narrative to suit your politics. The point is surely that it doesn't matter whether the threat is from the right or the left - they are equally dangerous at the extremes, and very similar in their totalitarianism. Would you rather have lived under Stalin, Mao or Pinochet?

Did you read the link to the History Boys Doodledog if so you'll know that the appropriate response to trying to justify right wing extremist violence by referring to left wing violence is "It isn't a contest".

None of the people I know who you would consider far left (and I'm considered that by some) who actually believe in equality and would be considered "woke" have ever advocated violence. There may be a few who have.

But as I said it is the Telegraph, not a newspaper renowned for its support of the left,or for any commitment to equality for that matter. And if it isn't important where the threat is coming from why highlight the article? Which plainly shows a right wing bias. Only right wingers regard the word "woke" as an insult.
Inequality is inequality the basis for that inequality is largely irrelevant, the reason for it has always been that controlling the majority depends upon dividing the public into minorities and setting one against the other . Race, gender, religion, sexuality, environmentalism, it doesn't really matter divide and control has always been the right wing patriarchal mantra. Picking off groups one at a time is actively and openly the policy of right wing Christian extremism. That's how it has always worked.

G says
Inequality is inequality
So wonder why you are so keen to
promote something that causes inequality Glorianny?

Do you really believe that allowing males to compete in female competitions, whatever the race or colour of either sex, is equality for both sexes?

A simple yes or no answer will do.
However, I suspect it will either be another of those unanswered questions or sidetracked by an attempt to bring in history or CS or remote villages.

Thank you Doodledog. Putting the needs of one group above those of another, which results in that group being discriminated against is of course wrong, and in the context of trans women (men) competing with biological women, is what we are discussing.

I agree that the pretence of acceptance, liberalism and I would add being inclusive from TRA's and those who support them is concerning and IMO so transparent that it amazes me that anyone can fail to see the real agenda here.

Did you read the link to the History Boys Doodledog if so you'll know that the appropriate response to trying to justify right wing extremist violence by referring to left wing violence is "It isn't a contest".
I agree that it isn't a contest, but didn't say it was - I said that regardless of left/right, extremism is bad. You are twisting my words again. One objection I have is to your insistence that questioning the attack on women's rights is driven by a right wing Christian agenda, which is, IMO, nonsense. I honestly don't know what the endgame is here, but it certainly isn't to foreground women and children.

I am not anti-'woke', where 'woke' means consideration, tolerance and inclusion, but when it means ignoring the needs of women, silencing or insulting anyone who speaks out, and excluding women by removing single-sex spaces and rigging sport (amongst other things), then I take issue. I am against 'woke' if it masks anti-semitism, anti-feminism and totalitarianism, which I fear is behind a lot of what is going on just now.

Again, language is important, and when we don't know what 'woke', 'inclusion', 'woman', man' or much else means, it makes debate very difficult. Which I think is deliberate.

Yes, the article is in the Telegraph. I'm not sure why I am supposed to justify that, but the fact is that I read a range of news sources, and don't denounce anything simply because of where it is published. I get a number of headlines delivered to my phone each day, and follow up ones that interest me regardless of the source, and this one chimed with both my views and the way this conversation has gone.

If you don't think that control is as much part of the extreme left agenda, 'have a think' about Stalin and Mao. I am definitely left-leaning politically, and have resigned from the LP because of the witch hunts of people in the left, but I am not talking about mainstream politics, but the extremes, which we haven't seen in the UK. If we aren't careful, however, and if we continue to mangle the truth, silence opposition, and slur, insult and patronise those who question, we are likely to find out what living under dictators is like.

Smileless2012

I think you have the wrong poster Glorianny. Without trawling back through the thread to check, I'm pretty confident that I've made no reference to CS and her partner having children, veiled or otherwise. If I am wrong then show me where.

Once again you are accusing me of being racist and anti trans; evidence please. Not your opinion but evidence.

My apologies Smileless2012 I fear I have confused you with Rosie51 but with attacks coming from many sides it is sometime difficult to sort out who has said what. I withdraw any allegations and ask you to accept my sincere apologies.

Attacks? Glorianny?
You mean if people tell the truth, and ask whether you support that truth, it’s an attack?