Dwp release results of pip claims study

MissAdventure

Who would you trust then?

The Daily Mail or Tory spin doctors?

Gillycats

I’d say that’s absolute rubbish. I know of many people claiming this and/or benefits who could work but don’t want to. Or claim to have certain conditions yet are well enough to engage in activities which would be prohibitive if they truly had that wrong with them. Makes me so mad when there are so many people with genuine health issues yet are struggling to get anything at all. It’s like a game of Russian roulette trying to get state help.

Really? many people? People you know so well that you are fully aware of the status of their benefits? If this is true, which I doubt, why don't you report these cheats to DWP?

The area I live in is very deprived, with lots of people on benefits.

I know the details of only 2 of them well enough to know if they are faking anything, and I couldnt begin to guess at the others - either amounts, or for what reason(s).

We have a block known as something not very flattering, where life for them appears to revolve around drugs.

I've no idea, but assume there are other issues going on with them; perhaps mental health, maybe caused by the drugs, or longstanding, and long before they started with drugs.
Possibly learning difficulties, and definitely self neglect.

I have no idea how much they get, or who, if anyone monitors them.

I can say with certainty that they look a poor lot.

Frequently we hear that one has died, but what from, I have no idea, since they all look neglected and quite pitiful.

That is as much as I know of other peoples finances and health conditions, in 35+ years of being here.

The two I know for certain is because I helped one to claim, as she had three strokes, has copd, and possibly mental health issues, and her son, the angel Gabriel.

Gillycats

I’d say that’s absolute rubbish. I know of many people claiming this and/or benefits who could work but don’t want to. Or claim to have certain conditions yet are well enough to engage in activities which would be prohibitive if they truly had that wrong with them. Makes me so mad when there are so many people with genuine health issues yet are struggling to get anything at all. It’s like a game of Russian roulette trying to get state help.

How do you know so many people on benefits? I live in an area which would stereotypically be classed as a benefits hot spot and I only know three people who claim.

What sort of area do you live in and what is the demographic of these "many people"?

I have a friend who was for 30 years a judge in the Appeal system for those turned down for among other things, disability benefits.

Her comments on the quality, knowledge and probity of the medical staff who undertook the assessments, is not fit to print on a forum like this. nor is her description of the pressure they were under to meet targets about how many people should be granted benefit each day.

Thank goodness we have the Appeal Panels. At one time the government wanted to abolish them, so that anyone turned down could only appeal to those who had made the decision in the first place, but this was stopped I think on legal grounds.

M0nica

I have a friend who was for 30 years a judge in the Appeal system for those turned down for among other things, disability benefits.

Her comments on the quality, knowledge and probity of the medical staff who undertook the assessments, is not fit to print on a forum like this. nor is her description of the pressure they were under to meet targets about how many people should be granted benefit each day.

Thank goodness we have the Appeal Panels. At one time the government wanted to abolish them, so that anyone turned down could only appeal to those who had made the decision in the first place, but this was stopped I think on legal grounds.

The age range for those who are not working because of health problems, according to BBC data, appears to be at either end of the spectrum. Twenty-somethings at one end, and older 50+ at the other.

It was cited that mental health issues were prevalent among the former, and muscular-skeletal and other age-associated health problems at the latter. Which makes sense.

But - long NHS waiting lists are not helping. Neither is the poor infrastructure around transport, childcare and social care. And there cannot be many people who unaware of the problems surrounding mental-health care, with waiting lists that sometimes extend for months, and even years.

The hospitality industry is crying out for workers because staff shortages are crippling their businesses. But these are not generally well-paid jobs, nor secure, and the hours are often unsociable, but that doesn't simply mean that people have to work when they would rather be out socialising, it also means that those with family commitments find it difficult to fit those commitments around the job. Long hours for low pay means that staff will and do leave at the first opportunity of a better, or slightly better job, too.

So rather than the simplistic uttering of the sick-note-culture mantra to rally the faithful and tempt the 'undecided', Sunak and his government should be looking at the issues that might be preventing people from entering and re-entering the 'flexible' workforce, with all its benefits for the employer and drawbacks for the employee.

Why don’t I report them? What, like the local drug dealer who deals to under age kids and claims benefits who has been reported many times to the police and they ignore him? Could it be that I know these people are claiming because here in a poor social housing area you know they’re not working but friends and family know they are falsely claiming and moan about it? Including one who threatened to kill me and my husband for parking outside our house which made him have to slow down instead of racing away in his van? So before some of you come out with comments dismissing someone else’s experience you really should spend 6 months living in a poor social housing area and see some of the rubbish that the decent folk like us have to suck up.

Grandmabatty

The famous "I know of many people." 'fact' which isn't a fact, is an opinion and not verified.

How do you know it’s not a fact? It’s not my opinion it is what I know to be true. Or are you saying I’m a liar perhaps??

Gillycats

Why don’t I report them? What, like the local drug dealer who deals to under age kids and claims benefits who has been reported many times to the police and they ignore him? Could it be that I know these people are claiming because here in a poor social housing area you know they’re not working but friends and family know they are falsely claiming and moan about it? Including one who threatened to kill me and my husband for parking outside our house which made him have to slow down instead of racing away in his van? So before some of you come out with comments dismissing someone else’s experience you really should spend 6 months living in a poor social housing area and see some of the rubbish that the decent folk like us have to suck up.

I'm sorry you had such a frightening and lousy experience, however in all truthfulness, do you think Sunak was referring to drug-dealers, thugs and other criminals when he coined his "sick-note-culture" phrase?

I'd imagine that benefit-fraud is is just one of the crimes committed by drug dealers and their ilk, but such criminals are not Sunak's target - no-one has sympathy for drug-dealer and burglars, etc, anyway. He wants us to believe that there's a whole swathe of sick and disabled people who could work, but don't want to.

One of the reasons why the police appear to ignore claims about drug-dealing, and other crime syndicates is because they don't have the manpower nor resources to deal with it, It's already been suggested that in order to stop sending criminals to over-crowded jails where there's no more room - the police suspend operations that might lead to large numbers of arrests. Or perhaps they are watching him, and others but can't yet make an arrest until they've built up a case against him? When someone's arrested, the police have a limited amount of time to bring a charge, and have to apply for extensions, as you probably know.

Took me from 1988 until last year to finally get disability benefits. I had to go to a PIP tribunal and only because The Brain Charity got me a solicitor pro bono who worked on my behalf from July 2022 until end August 2023 when I attended the tribunal . They where lovely . Really it a court as it's a real judge and the paperwork comes from the crown judicial service. I was born disabled but I only claim when my health got worse when I was 29 and my GP said to and told me you are disabled so entitled to it. I look normal when sitting it's when I move you can see what's wrong with me . But I was turned down because of no diagnosis.

Finally had my diagnosis in 2022 thanks to my neurologist having my whole genome genetically tested and it's rare he had never had a patient with it nor his colleagues. Thanks to my Facebook group he has another patient with it as I talked about him and she had a referral to him. Her gene mutation is different to mine but same symptoms. Mine isn't passed through families hers is.

I know of people where I used to live get benefits coming out of their ears and there was nothing wrong with them. One woman told me all 4 members had a new car every 2 years and 3 holidays a year could afford to buy their own house and said why should we the council pay for all repairs ,new windows etc plus because of her health help with council tax etc. She told me she had very bad depression. I said sorry to hear that . Then said haven't really but it's easy to fake. I could have throttled her. But I know of other people faking illnesses there as well.

Even with my diagnosis PIP after the forms and 45 copies of medical evidence from my GP, Neurologist and Cardiologist and the phone assessment gave me zero on everything.

Thankfully the tribunal where fair and very kind . I was awarded enhanced PIP for living and mobility indefinitely back dated until March 2022 when I had the forms. Because of how low my savings where my solicitor told me to claim UC this was before I had a tribunal date . And I couldn't have been treated differently. Went to the job centre to see my caseworker and she said she would send off for the health forms there is a proper name for it but can't remember it. And she set everything up on my phone for me. And said phone appointments only as she wasn't having me come in again. I had a face to face assessment as after my phone assessment from PIP I didn't trust them . Again how I was treated was lovely .

There is and will always be fraud and people like me and Miss A had a hard journey to get the help we need.

What worries me more is this green paper saying they would not give a cash payment but vouchers for what a disabled person needs etc. Thankfully it's only talk . And with a general election we will have a change of government.

I am now a pensioner so my UCs stopped which is only right thankfully I get full state pension plus 48p per week for the 30 years my late husband paid his NI. And with help from the CA get pension credit. I contacted my local council and they said I could claim for council tax reduction. I get 25% off for living on my own but could get more. Yesterday I spent 2 hours filling in the on line form. My hands tremble all the time so typing is difficult as I hit the wrong keys plus my HPX effects my cognitive function so need to read things 3 times before it sinks in what I need to do. Got to the part to upload my proof and it timed me out and everything disappeared.

I emailed the council to see if I can talk to someone they fill in the form for me and I email them all my proof. Will have to wait and see what happens. I have difficulty writing and because of my tremors it's all lower case and very small because I have to control my hand. My daughter filled in my PIP forms which took over 3 hours and a friend who is used to filling forms did my health UC one which took her over 4 hours.

Miss A's journey and Cabbie's advice meant I didn't give up my fight for PIP . But I can never thank the Brain Charity enough and the CA for their help.

I would love someone to write down all the benefits that each individual gets that add up to a lifestyle that runs to new cars and holidays.

I worked as a home visitor and benefits advisor for a charity for older people for 10 years, and I have been helping people, on an informal basis, including several on GN, to get Attendance Allowance since. I also have the secondhand experience, given above from someone who held a senior position in the Appeals system.

Disability benefits, of all kinds, are not handed out like shelling peas. Of course there will be the ocasional person, who manages to cheat and lie their way to a benefit, but are we to condemn all recipients - including people like Whiff, for the crimes of 1%?

The reason we know about the gang and the £54 million fraud, is because they were caught! I am sure conviction will be followed by a major claw back of assets from the gang members.

My own experience is that the mills of the DWP grind slow but exceeding fine. I had several clients who failed to declare quite small amounts of capital, not deliberately but because, when in pain, and trying to complete a form, it is easy to forget things, like one of several building society accounts, the rest accounted for. In each case, a year to 18 months later, the benefit would be stopped until repayment of amounts of under £1,000 were repaid.

I do not think there is extensive deliberate fraud with UC, but I do think people end up being overpaid because the system is so complex and people living lives under pressure find it difficult to get their heads round all the things they need to write down and declare. We have recently had the DWP claiming back £sthousands paid to carers, which they have now decided they were not entitled to.

Goodness Whiff, I can't even begin to imagine what it has taken out of you going through all that. There are doubtless many ,many people who do not have the strength or capacity to keep up the fight and sadly don't receive the help to which they are entitled.
And that is the true 'crime' that needs to be investigated. Sharpish.

The reason we know about the gang and the £54 million fraud, is because they were caught! I am sure conviction will be followed by a major claw back of assets from the gang members.

So this from a PP is the reason that DWP can't possibly know fraud is only 0%.

Just because people are not caught doesn't mean they don't exist.

People also say why do you not grass on people you think are cheats..they must live a sheltered life, have they never heard the phrase " snitches get stitches". Its said for a reason

So the drug dealers, which benefits are they claiming?

Ohhowwelaughed But everything is based on hearsay. All these people who 'know' people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to rarely know th persons detailed medical history. Many very seriously ill and disabled people, may actually look fine if you see them outside their own home.

I worked with elderly people and I had several clients, who seen outside the house, walking with her arm through her husband's, or greeting you at the door with a smile, immaculately dressed and made-up, hid real suffering. One suffered from meunieres disease, which causes extreme dizziness, sometimes for weeks on end, she had to crawl rund the house on her hands and knees as the dizziness meant she could not stand. She had alopecia and wore a wig and once fell against the cooker setting her wig on fire and starting a house fire.

Another lady was in such extremem pain, that once a week at least she would have to take a pain killer that gave her 48 hours of diorrhea and extreme nausea, but it was better than the pain.

You really cannot tell just by seeing someone what their medical condition may be.

M0nica

Ohhowwelaughed But everything is based on hearsay. All these people who 'know' people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to rarely know th persons detailed medical history. Many very seriously ill and disabled people, may actually look fine if you see them outside their own home.

I worked with elderly people and I had several clients, who seen outside the house, walking with her arm through her husband's, or greeting you at the door with a smile, immaculately dressed and made-up, hid real suffering. One suffered from meunieres disease, which causes extreme dizziness, sometimes for weeks on end, she had to crawl rund the house on her hands and knees as the dizziness meant she could not stand. She had alopecia and wore a wig and once fell against the cooker setting her wig on fire and starting a house fire.

Another lady was in such extremem pain, that once a week at least she would have to take a pain killer that gave her 48 hours of diorrhea and extreme nausea, but it was better than the pain.

You really cannot tell just by seeing someone what their medical condition may be.

All these people who 'know' people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to rarely know th persons detailed medical history

I'm also puzzled how they know which benefits are being claimed - some benefits are not necessarily paid in full.

If I see someone of working age in my street fairly regularly during working hours, he or she could be working from home, working part-time, working some days and not others, be a carer, be ill, be disabled, be temporarily unemployed - or maybe even 'unemployable', could have won the lottery, come into an inheritance... how would I know unless told where their income stemmed from or why they didn't disappear from 9-5.

This is why I don't understand how so many seem to know so much about other people's business.

"I know many people who are claiming benefits, who are not really ill they just don't want to work" is now becoming a standard response whenever the matter of benefits is raised.

How on earth did they get to know such detailed information about so many people?

"How on earth did they get to know such detailed information about so many people?"

Community that's how, where I live I have lived with the same people for 60 years, I know probably 50 people enough I could probably win Mr and Mrs with them.

I went to school with lots of them, I know there sisters,brothers, who they went out with and who they had affairs with

If you have never lived in such close communities then you would never know. The local spar shop workers could tell you even more about our local people

Having known these people for so long and so personally why would I grass on any of them unless so major crime that I couldn't live with myself for not telling .

All the claimant I know that are fraudulent are not that they are not ill but let's put it they make the illness worse so they can either claim the higher rates or make claiming easier by getting longer gaps between checks

So yes I see people come on saying nobody is claiming and it's all hearsay and nobody knows about people and thinks they have lead such sheltered lives.

Just like we all know cash in hand is done, a tenner here and a tenner there but are not added into HMRC stats.

I too am puzzled how people who make up or exaggerate health conditions manage to be awarded benefits when genuine claimants find it so hard to get their claims accepted.

Claiming PIP, which incidentally is not means-tested so is not necessarily “ living off benefits” as some people are able to work and be entitled to PIP, is actually very difficult . Renewals are not automatic. Being turned down means a challenge and then the decision is rarely overturned without having to go to Tribunal, meaning a long wait. All very stressful if your life is already hard work due to physical disability or anxiety.
Even claiming UC means fulfilling a claimant commitment, and if you fail to do so, you get sanctioned ie your money is reduced or stopped.
In all my years as an advisor I met only two people whose claims were not justifiable, and many hundreds whose genuine claims were initially turned down and needed help to succeed.

Cabbie21 Like you I have been a benefits advisor, in my case with the older people. I do not ever think I had an unjustifiable case, but I used to find that the DWP assessors were able to deal with simple cases - someone with severe arthritis for example, where the disability was easy to explain, but seemed completely incapable of dealing with complex cases, where someone had multiple health problems which affected them in complex ways.

These cases were more likely to be turned down than the simpler cases. Having said that I always took these cases to appeal and never once had one failed to get the benefit on appeal.

"In all my years as an advisor I met only two people whose claims were not justifiable"

But this is the point, how long have you known these people and how many times have you seen them?

Let's take John who live down the road from me, slightly younger at 59. He's been having quite a bit of trouble with his back loads of hospital visits and scans and a degenerative disc problems.

He still goes to work as a self employed gardener but doesn't do weeding etc anymore but sticks to cutting hedges and gets the Mrs. to clean up.
Now if you came to see him at home to help him fill his claim form in and he told you he was in crippling pain and was struggling to walk to the gate and back and he's has the consultant scans etc to prove it what would you think and how would you have him fill the form in.

As it happens John doesn't claim as he says he can earn enough as it is and he doesn't have to be looking over his shoulder all day to check nobody is watching.

Very well illustrated Ohhowwelaughed. (I like your user name by the way my aunt used to make us laugh by saying that phrase occasionally!). Irrefutable anecdotes that stack up. I believe you. I know of one couple in Bristol who know how to game the system and over the years have done very well (their kids even gained Master degrees at no cost).

BTW we have known this family for over 40 years. How could we ‘dob them in’? It might have got back to them so I never dared take the chance even though it really rankled - especially when our eldest daughter would have liked to have done a Masters after getting her first class degree but on balance decided another £9k of student debt for a year was a step too far that she couldn’t afford.

I suppose these examples we are giving are all low level fruit but they add up nationwide.

Urmstongran

Very well illustrated Ohhowwelaughed. (I like your user name by the way my aunt used to make us laugh by saying that phrase occasionally!). Irrefutable anecdotes that stack up. I believe you. I know of one couple in Bristol who know how to game the system and over the years have done very well (their kids even gained Master degrees at no cost).

Thank you, I could name 3 in my local community without even thinking.

One that is my son's friend all through school and now mid 40s. Window cleaner or was until he fell off the ladder about 8 years ago.

Pretty bad at the time with various injuries and we were all worried for him. Now he has played on it and even gets meds he never takes.

The biggest one he now uses is he claims carers allowance so his 18 year old daughter doesn't need to go to college etc. She usually doesn't get up while 2 o clock and is out all hour with mates driving the country side.

How do I know all this? Because he sits in our house many an hour when my son calls and chats. Would I grass on him, hell no but I politely say to him don't come complaining when you can't get a doctor or hospital appointment in future.

M0nica

Cabbie21 Like you I have been a benefits advisor, in my case with the older people. I do not ever think I had an unjustifiable case, but I used to find that the DWP assessors were able to deal with simple cases - someone with severe arthritis for example, where the disability was easy to explain, but seemed completely incapable of dealing with complex cases, where someone had multiple health problems which affected them in complex ways.

These cases were more likely to be turned down than the simpler cases. Having said that I always took these cases to appeal and never once had one failed to get the benefit on appeal.

...but I used to find that the DWP assessors were able to deal with simple cases - someone with severe arthritis for example, where the disability was easy to explain, but seemed completely incapable of dealing with complex cases, where someone had multiple health problems which affected them in complex ways.

That does make sense - even your GP can be stumped by complex medical conditions in terms of understanding how you might be affected by them, or whether the symptoms you're explaining to him are connected or not. And bearing in mind that each person will experience their illness or disability differently, and that people's pain level tolerance varies, there's no set formula for an assessor to work from. I suppose the assessment is boiled down to the lowest common denominator?

When I was undergoing chemotherapy I soon realised that I wasn't affected as badly as some others who were having the same treatment. I watched one woman in the treatment-room having the same infusion as me, become more and more distressed and eventually vomit, whilst I hardly experienced a moment of nausea and was never physically sick. But the fatigue was something else, absolutely crushing - yet another woman told me about her 'exercise programme' (she was a keen 'keep-fit' type). I couldn't have managed any form of exercise, on the other hand, I had an enormous healthy appetite, whilst she said food all tasted like cardboard.

So how the heck do you assess people on their ability to work when in reality, no two people are alike who might be suffering from the same disease?

I suppose you design a system which awards points on very basic activities - if you can't do any of them because you are paralysed in a wheelchair, you get the full points awarded and are deemed unfit for work.

Can you wash and dress yourself - yes. Can you walk x number of metres - yes. Can you bend down and pick things up from the floor - yes. Can you do this, that and the other - yes, yes, yes.

... but I can only do them for about an hour because I have an infusion of poison coursing through my body which is not only destroying cancer cells but also my healthy cells that are growing and trying to divide to keep me alive. And there's no tick-box for that.

I have no idea how some are able to game the system yet others, very poorly people, are rejected. But obviously, it's possible and very prevalent - the number of posters on here who know so many people doing just that is testament to it.

Germanshepherdsmum

The report is from the DWP. They talk of ‘recorded cases’ of fraud. What about the Bulgarian gang which was in the news a while ago? I wouldn’t trust the DWP on this.

Was the recorded fraud on PIP though or Universal Credit? They are two totally different departments, just like State Pensions, though all part of the bigger entity the DWP