Means testing state pension.

I worked for a bank and received my bank pension at 60, nearly 3 years before I qualified for my state pension.

My bank pension reduced when I started to receive my SP, something called ‘clawback’.

Never really understood why, but obviously to do with how the bank ‘opted us out’ or something.

I knew it would happen, as I had been told by colleagues about it.

Calendargirl

I worked for a bank and received my bank pension at 60, nearly 3 years before I qualified for my state pension.

My bank pension reduced when I started to receive my SP, something called ‘clawback’.

Never really understood why, but obviously to do with how the bank ‘opted us out’ or something.

I knew it would happen, as I had been told by colleagues about it.

I think that is the Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP) I mentioned above.

Doodledog, he opted out of SERPS.

Grantanow

It is technically a benefit. Your NI contributions did not create a pension fund from which you draw the pension. NI contributions pay the pensions of those already retired. When you retire your pension is paid by the NI contributions of those still in work. So it's a benefit just like any other benefit but most of us feel we've paid in and therefore have a moral right to a payout.

Absolutely correct!

I’d love to see this changed, ringfenced and treated far more like a private pension!

eazybee

^Its nasty and deliberate scaremongering for a vulnerable group and they should be ashamed, there is absolutely no evidence for it.^

I would say the so-called 'vulnerable group' is more alarmed by the doom-laden pronouncements Kier Starmer, a not very skilful demagogue, persists in making at present.

Would you rather Starmer lied and was a jolly, jokey buffoon or crashed our economy?? I know I wouldn’t!

There’s nothing jolly about the state of our Country and I’d rather hear honest bad news than happy lies!

The government are saying that the state pension is a benefit even though we paid into the system when we started working, me in 1958 aged 15 until I retired aged 60.

If I had paid into an insurance policy for all those years I would at 60 have received a lump sum of money.

So why are the government saying that something we paid money into for all those years is a benefit which they can manipulate to their own advantage as and when they want to. A benefit is something that is given freely and because I paid into the system I do not class my pension as a benefit but as a right.

Well Cossy, if you believe that Labour is honest and truthful you probably need to take off those rose-tinted glasses!

PamelaJ1

Doodledog, he opted out of SERPS.

Ah, could you do that unilaterally? I thought it was just employers who did so on behalf of their staff. It's all so complicated, and has life-changing implications for so many people.

I think these days people are more clued up than we were - at one time people felt that they could trust 'the system' to do right by us. My children (early 30s) are far less confident about that than I was. I have always been in a Union, however, so was kept informed that way - something else that I would advise anyone still in work to do.

Cossy

eazybee

Its nasty and deliberate scaremongering for a vulnerable group and they should be ashamed, there is absolutely no evidence for it.

I would say the so-called 'vulnerable group' is more alarmed by the doom-laden pronouncements Kier Starmer, a not very skilful demagogue, persists in making at present.

Would you rather Starmer lied and was a jolly, jokey buffoon or crashed our economy?? I know I wouldn’t!

There’s nothing jolly about the state of our Country and I’d rather hear honest bad news than happy lies!

Jolly, jokey buffoon, crashed the economy. Who on earth can you mean Cossy:? Surely not Johnson and Truss.
Some people must have very short memories.

There are a lot of rumours flying around, most of them of them fuelled by the right wing press and pundits.
Desperate times call for desperate measures but we don't know what all the measures will be yet.

eazybee

^Its nasty and deliberate scaremongering for a vulnerable group and they should be ashamed, there is absolutely no evidence for it.^

I would say the so-called 'vulnerable group' is more alarmed by the doom-laden pronouncements Kier Starmer, a not very skilful demagogue, persists in making at present.

Or would you prefer a skilful demagogue, who knows which honeyed phases to tell the population as he fiddles while Rome the country burns goes even further down the drain that he has inherited?

I am not a labour voter, never have been and probably never will be, but I do think all those, once pro Labour people now knocking Labour after only a few weeks in power should consider what the alternative is and why it is that at the last elelction it was thrown our and replaced by Labour.

I am not making any comments dissing this current government until it has been in power at least a year and we can see what they are actually doing and how it is working out in practice.

Well said, M0nica. There has been so much speculation and blatant misrepresentation of what the government has done/will do. I hoped it would die down after the election, but it hasn't. I'm now hoping that it will die down when Parliament reopens and things start happening.

It was obvious before the election that when the new government came into power, they would have to grasp the nettle and pass some legislation that would be unpopular - it wasn't a coincidence that the previous one had avoided doing a thorough weeding.

I am sure most of us have started to tame a neglected garden. How long did it take? First you have to find out just what tangle of vegetation you are dealing with, then you have to decide what to save, what to eliminate, and what to prune back or train into a new shape. Only then can you plan new flowerbeds, order plants, plant seeds and bulbs and so on. Will it all be thriving and ready to enjoy after a few weeks?
How long do you have before the gardening season is over for the year and you must pause and gather strength for the next bout?

How can you politely tell your highly critical neighbours that when you bought the house you also bought a spade, a fork, a strimmer and a pruning knife, not a magic wand that transformed the garden overnight into an earthly Paradise?

There have been only a few weeks for the incoming government to survey the prospect before them (with different eyes and more accurate facts and figures) and to start making solid plans and taking preliminary action, before Parliament closed down for the recess. Also, remember, both parties have had a hectic time fighting an election, and the Labour party has had to choose and brief the team which will do the bulk of the horticultural work.

That action cannot take place immediately, because there have to be discussions and votes before any legal rules are altered - there may be changes at this stage. Then the practical arrangements have to be put in place.

As Monica says, it will be at least a year before any effect is visible of a different approach. There is no magic wand that will change anything overnight

Excellent metaphor, Elegran.

I love your post Elegran and agree we need to find out what Labour actually intends to do before starting on the criticism. That's why I'm so disappointed in them that the only firm announcement we've had is the withdrawal of WFA from the vast majority of pensioners with hardly a moment's notice. They may well announce some mitigations to help those just above the cutoff point but surely that should have accompanied the original announcement to dispel the very real fear some are feeling? I don't think they've done themselves any favours and this from someone who voted for them and won't be hard hit by the measure.

They need to hire a better PR team as a matter of urgency. Where is Alistair Campbell when he's needed? I bet Cummings would betray his Tory principles for the right salary, too.

I agree with Rosie51, as one who voted for them too.

They have caused unnecessary furore with the sudden and clumsy withdrawal of the WFA, especially after Sir Keir criticised Rishi Sunak for proposing the same.

Things do need to change but antagonising one section of voters and refuelling (sorry) the Intergenerational discord is not the best start.

Perhaps they're not worried about pensioners, after all some of us may not be around to vote in five years' time, especially if we have some very cold winters.

Doodledog

They need to hire a better PR team as a matter of urgency. Where is Alistair Campbell when he's needed? I bet Cummings would betray his Tory principles for the right salary, too.

Oh, not Alistair Campbell, please!

We need an edit button like Mumsnet.
But perhaps I'd better not post what I think of Campbell.

Rosie51

I love your post Elegran and agree we need to find out what Labour actually intends to do before starting on the criticism. That's why I'm so disappointed in them that the only firm announcement we've had is the withdrawal of WFA from the vast majority of pensioners with hardly a moment's notice. They may well announce some mitigations to help those just above the cutoff point but surely that should have accompanied the original announcement to dispel the very real fear some are feeling? I don't think they've done themselves any favours and this from someone who voted for them and won't be hard hit by the measure.

I agree. It seems to go against the general movement of his plans, and alienates a whole chunk of his assumed supporters.

However, I do think that if pensioners as a demographic (those with work pensions as well as those dependent only on state pension) appear to be treated as sacred cows, then it could increase the divide between them and younger people struggling to raise a family and pay the bills.

Perhaps he saw the measure as a graphic demonstration that none of those who have the means to contribute are exempt, but that those who officially don't have that means (in this case those pensioners getting pension credit) will be helped? Perhaps his publication of aims and measures is not yet finished, and there is more to come, once the next session starts? Perhaps, too, this was a toe in the water, to gauge reactions?

Those reactions, of course, were largely instant and without waiting to hear the rest of the proposed measures. We should hear soon the result of the midnight oil burned while lesser MPs enjoyed a restful (?) recess.

Despite what people think, the state pension is a benefit and always has been. It is a contributory benefit paid for out of the national insurance fund along with other contributory benefits. The 1948 and 2014 pension acts are clear it is a benefit, end of discussion! Means testing would not happen as there would be enormous legal issues, such as people making voluntary payments into the system, which lead to legal challenges if it was means tested. Contracting out was not a way of means testing, but to reduce the NI payments of both employers and employees and thus enable more money to go into the pension fund. If you have contracted out of SERPS and S2P you will be better off than if you didn't. Any years you worked after 2016 will reduce the COPE calculation and enable your state pension to grow up to the new maximum, assuming you work long enough.

I also meant to say that comparisons with the Australian pension are inappropriate as that pension is non contributory, which is why it is means tested. The truth be known, our pension is quite generous considering how little we pay into it in NI.

Allira

Doodledog

They need to hire a better PR team as a matter of urgency. Where is Alistair Campbell when he's needed? I bet Cummings would betray his Tory principles for the right salary, too.

Oh, not Alistair Campbell, please!

I know, hence the . But either we get people like him, (and/or Cummings) or we should let things play out. Jumping to conclusions and reacting to mass media scare stories gets us nowhere. At least the spin doctors knew the bigger picture, ensured the stories came out at the right times, and advised the politicians about what to say when.

1State pension
(1)This Part creates a benefit called state pension.
(2)A person who reaches pensionable age before 6 April 2016 is not entitled to benefits under this Part (but may be entitled to similar benefits under Part 2 of the Contributions and Benefits Act).

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/19/contents

Brahumbug

1State pension
(1)This Part creates a benefit called state pension.
(2)A person who reaches pensionable age before 6 April 2016 is not entitled to benefits under this Part (but may be entitled to similar benefits under Part 2 of the Contributions and Benefits Act).

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/19/contents

The message from Starmer is we as a nation have to pay our way, those that have no money can’t pay, so those that have, must pay more, pensioners will not be exempt.