Gisèlle Pelicot - the case is tearing French society apart.

These men are all around us
But we all have brothers, dads, grandads, sons and grandsons who aren’t like that …. thank God not all men

Yes. Exactly BlueBelle
Not all men - by any means!

Oreo I fear a lot of people will shrug and carry on as before.

grandMattie

It's truly horrific. Difficult to imagine.

But, what I think is saddest, is that every good man, honest man, is unfairly being tarred by the same brush.

Hang on.

You find the idea that men might be viewed with more caution or suspicion than the fact that a woman was drugged and raped by at least 70 different men?

Are you seriously rating men’s feelings potentially being hurt as more of an issue?

grandMattie

It's truly horrific. Difficult to imagine.

But, what I think is saddest, is that every good man, honest man, is unfairly being tarred by the same brush.

If you think that that is the saddest part, your sympathy radar needs an overhaul.

Re feelings - can we cite the way that there is still active discrimination against women? Can't speak for other countries - but in Britain:
1. men can get the NHS to sterilise them - but women can't (unless we've had several children anyway - which rather defeats the object).
2. men get paid more than women do if they do equity release scheme on their house (the exact same age person in the exact same house will get less money for being female than if they were male)
3. It's women that are having to complain that men who wish to "self-identify as women" are allowed in our spaces - but I can't see any sign of "women who self-identify as men" creating problems for men.
4. It's women who worry about walking the streets alone at night - not men.

It seems to be tearing her family apart as well. All three of her children seem to be struggling. Her daughter thinks she has also been abused, one sons marriage has broken up when his wife found out her FIL had naked pictures of her, one son not sure if it's the same one wants a DNA test as he believes he's the product of an affair his mother had. The daughter is angry that her mother took some clothes and things to her father in prison. All on the BBC site.

What a nightmare as if the rapes weren't bad enough she has so much more to deal with.

Galaxy

Not all men but lots of men.

Galaxy and Overthemoongran are both correct.
It's not just France where misogynistic views prevail.
I recall a survey not so long ago that showed a significant % of men admitted rape and other unwanted sexual activity and an even greater % admitted that they would rape a woman if they believed they would get away with it.

Anyone who isn't fighting to stop the further degradation of women’s rights and, in particular, to keep women's right to single sex spaces needs to wake up!

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html

The academic survey is here:
blogs.kent.ac.uk/psychology/2021/10/29/first-survey-examining-sexual-violence-by-male-uk-students-shines-a-light-on-misogyny-of-young-men/

CariadAgainwomen do apparently live longer than men which is why men get more money from equity release.
I hope the family will find some peace and resolution perhaps once the court case ends. It’s the saddest betrayal ever seen.

ronib

*CariadAgain*women do apparently live longer than men which is why men get more money from equity release.
I hope the family will find some peace and resolution perhaps once the court case ends. It’s the saddest betrayal ever seen.

I know "women live longer" is used as the excuse for equity release discrimination currently. I only had someone (a man...) quote that one at me the other day - with no apparent thought that it's wrong. The thought doesn't seem to cross their minds that we should now be thinking "How long does the average person live?" and not "How long does the average woman live/the average man live?".

I wonder what the excuse was for women not having the vote until sometime after men. I can't recall the excuse for not giving single women mortgages (at least without a 'guarantor') until some time into my lifetime. I remember that one distinctly - as I was 24 before that came along and I thought "Good - now I can buy my house. I'm the age where I'm supposed to have one now" - only to find that it took 10 years longer than that and a sheer fluke before I could exercise my right to a mortgage (as couples pushed house prices up when that happened - and so it was still outa reach of a single woman unless she was well-paid).

It will be interesting to see what, if any, sentences are handed down to these men. I doubt there is a precedent anywhere to compare with this trial.
You cannot generalise and tar all men with the same brush. The majority of men must be as appalled as women with the details that have been exposed in court. Having said that I have always felt that sex comes very near the top of a man's to do list.

This case really shook me to the core .
At the very least , I hope that Gisele Pelicot receives a chevalier for her extraordinary bravery in going public .

She couldn't give consent......she couldn't say NO.......she couldn't say STOP!
RAPE!!!! How else would any decent human being define it?

Astitchintime

She couldn't give consent......she couldn't say NO.......she couldn't say STOP!
RAPE!!!! How else would any decent human being define it?

Well stealthing is being defined as rape these days - ie that's when a woman has consented to sex....but he surreptitiously takes off a condom he's using part way through. I agree indeed that stealthing is also rape - even though she consented in the first place (as she did not consent to him not using a condom). I was only reading an article about it in the papers this morning - where she agreed to sex and he did stealthing on her and she got pregnant as a result of it! That having been followed by him trying to bully her into having the child she hadn't bargained on/didn't want. She did have an abortion for that resultant pregnancy - so yep...he had put her through an unwanted pregnancy and necessity for abortion and so it most definitely was rape.

That was when she was conscious and was in a relationship with the concerned - as she'd thought he was a normal bloke to start with until he did that to her.

Not sure what mortgages have to do with it but just wanted to say my great grandmother got a mortgage and bought a house after she threw my great-grandfather out. Single woman with 4 kids. That would have been about 120 years ago.

CariadAgain......I was actually referring to Giselle, NOT the subject of another case altogether. I am well aware of the definition of RAPE thank you!

Cariadagain
I know "women live longer" is used as the excuse for equity release discrimination currently. I only had someone (a man...) quote that one at me the other day - with no apparent thought that it's wrong. The thought doesn't seem to cross their minds that we should now be thinking "How long does the average person live?" and not "How long does the average woman live/the average man live?".

The problem with equity release, Cariad is that the interest on the mortgage is rolled up until the person dies and the company making the equity release loan want to be sure that the interest doesn't roll on for so long that the amount due back to them exceeds the value of the house when sold.

Those applying for equity release, also, usually, fill in a medical form because the life expectancy of someone with heart disease, or who smokes, or has MS for example will also affect their life expectancy, as does where they live. On average women live 4-5 years longer than men, and those last years are the ones when compound interest is really racking up, so of course your sex, among other things, will be taken into consideration when deciding how much to lend on equity release.

The lenders are commercial companie not charities and have living to earn.

Rosie51

Of course they're sexual abusers. The woman was unconscious, unresponsive. Every one of these men is a disgrace to the human race. I agree 100% Maggiemaybe. If I was married to any of them I'd be filing for divorce, and if I was the child of one I'd be cutting him out of my life absolutely.

I agree with you both and others.

I hope they all get a prison sentence.

Rape is rape whether it involves violence or a woman who is unconscious for any reason.

What pathetic, disgusting specimens of male humans they all are.

M0nica

Cariadagain
I know "women live longer" is used as the excuse for equity release discrimination currently. I only had someone (a man...) quote that one at me the other day - with no apparent thought that it's wrong. The thought doesn't seem to cross their minds that we should now be thinking "How long does the average person live?" and not "How long does the average woman live/the average man live?".

The problem with equity release, Cariad is that the interest on the mortgage is rolled up until the person dies and the company making the equity release loan want to be sure that the interest doesn't roll on for so long that the amount due back to them exceeds the value of the house when sold.

Those applying for equity release, also, usually, fill in a medical form because the life expectancy of someone with heart disease, or who smokes, or has MS for example will also affect their life expectancy, as does where they live. On average women live 4-5 years longer than men, and those last years are the ones when compound interest is really racking up, so of course your sex, among other things, will be taken into consideration when deciding how much to lend on equity release.

The lenders are commercial companie not charities and have living to earn.

Thank you for giving the full excuse these companies make re equity release. Though it still doesnt explain why they are presumably saying "Average woman lives to 83" and "Average man lives to 79" - when they should be saying "Average person lives to 81" instead. One of these days I must read the full gamut of excuses made to women as to why first we couldnt vote and then, if memory serves me, women had to be in a more advantageous position (ie older) I believe before we had the same voting rights as men. It would be interesting also to read justifications used by slave-owners - until slavery was abolished. There are always justifications/excuses used for bad behaviour by the person who benefits from it.

**********

Re the comment about one woman managing to get a mortgage over a century ago - she was older/she was a widow/she had children and it must have been one or more of those things that meant an exception got made for her. But googling produced an article by a guy in finance in UK re women generally getting mortgages on the same basis as men and yep it was the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975 that decreed we must be given mortgages on exactly the same basis as men (ie no guarantors/no more favourable circumstances/etc).

This is my point - until we are rid of all forms of sex discrimination from our Western societies = somewhere in their little minds many individual men will regard us as "lesser beings" too and therefore them having a "right to rape" somewhere deep in their little minds.

The playing field - in EVERY single respect in our society must be 100% equality between men and women to help to get the message home to them that we are equal beings and not to be treated as objects they can rape if they wish.

You seem to have a very negative view of men Cariad how sad, the vast majority are delightful and neither rapists, nor entertaining even the thought of it ever. Do you have any male friends?
I think MOnica has explained clearly the different weighting factors in offering, or not, equity release.
I also think discrimination of many sorts should be ideally removed across all societies, not just western, but cultural change takes many years. Legislation does not necessarily mean implementation.

Re the comment about one woman managing to get a mortgage over a century ago - she was older/she was a widow/she had children and it must have been one or more of those things that meant an exception got made for her. But googling produced an article by a guy in finance in UK re women generally getting mortgages on the same basis as men and yep it was the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975 that decreed we must be given mortgages on exactly the same basis as men (ie no guarantors/no more favourable circumstances/etc).

She wasn't a widow at the time, she was eventually as like most women she lived longer than he did, and when I said she threw him out I wasn't referring to her launching a dead body out of the house.

When you read that generally getting mortgages on the same basis as men the key word is generally, women could and did get mortgages in their own right before 1975 you just had to go to the right place, even now different financial establishment will have different criteria. I know it for a fact as my mother did it in 1967 when she was a widow with children. Financial organisations aren't going to lend to someone just because they are a widow, they want their money back. I would think being a single parent with dependent children would make getting a mortgage harder not easier purely on affordability.

If it is any comfort to you Cariad when I worked for the police they could commute up to 25% of their pension for a lump sum. Female officers got more than a male officer with the same length of service and same age because the calculation was they would live longer so the product of 25% of their pension was worth more than for a man.

I don't know if it is still the same.

I don't like seeing discrimination in either direction theworriedwell actually - though there's now a little nagging thought in my brain that I worked for the police as well many many years ago and only for about 2 years (office job) and now thinking "Wonder what happened about that little bit of job pension?"

This has all got me thinking I might do a little research project at some point on just how many bits of sex discrimination are still going on in Britain one way or another. Not forgetting the fact that before women got the vote on a totally equal basis to men there were some women (!) arguing against their own sex and saying we shouldnt have it and there must have been some "justifications" going then to deny us our vote for so long and even some other women quoting these justifications and fighting against their own sex. I wonder what those justifications were - as it's certain there will have been some. The "real" reason for them fighting against their own sex must have been husbands telling them "This is what you do - or else" I presume...but they would have quoted some excuse or another to make out it wasnt unfair the way things were.

I know I can (and will) avoid the equity release discrimination - ie by simply never doing one of those schemes and then I can't be treated that way. But I'd like to have the option there (as a little bit of mental 'security') and I appreciate some women will need to take it up and have to "live with themselves being treated unfairly" and the effect on their self-respect of that.

The biggest form of sex discrimination still going is men seem to get sterilisation operations just by asking for them - but women are usually refused them. I'm blowed if I can even remember the "justification" used for that...and I just have to try and forget I was made to pay for mine (as private was the only way I could get it) and try not to think too much about the £2,000 (in today's terms) that I'd still have in my pocket if I'd been a man.

I'm sorry I know I am going to be hated for saying this, but I do not think that having sex with a drugged woman, in her own bed is the same as violent assault where the victim is beaten and even hurt as well as raped, not do I think it is on a par with having sex with children. I do not think that the psychology of men is given space these days - we are very quick to brand them as 'monsters' for their desires, which are more objective than ours. PLEASE NOTE, I DO NOT SAY THIS IS OKAY, just that it was easier for the men concerned to kid themselves about what they were doing. It may be hard for men to realise what rape is because they probably would not mind being sexually tampered with by 50 females. These men need to be punished, yes, but not in the same way as those who have been brutal and who are a danger. Men need educating, from childhood upwards, about respect and empathy. They do not need to be made to feel guilty for their maleness - they need positive role-models with integrity, protectiveness, consideration and strength, and these are largely absent.

^Quote Jaxjacky Sun 08-Dec-24 15:50:06
You seem to have a very negative view of men Cariad how sad, the vast majority are delightful and neither rapists, nor entertaining even the thought of it ever. Do you have any male friends?^

Well said Jax ✔️