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Gisèlle Pelicot - the case is tearing French society apart.

(133 Posts)
FriedGreenTomatoes2 Sat 07-Dec-24 12:19:25

From an article in the Sunday Times:

“Since there are 50 in total, the alleged rapists have been tried in batches and I’m just here for the final seven: Boris, Philippe, Nicolas, Nizair, Joseph, Christian, Charly. Plus Dominique Pelicot himself, who invited them all into his marital bedroom, where he had his wife waiting, drugged and naked, and who joined in and filmed it all. Pelicot, 71, crumpled and fat now, but with a residual bulky power, sits sullenly alone with his guard in a separate glass box, protected from the other men who blame and detest him.

Ordinary men in many respects, not vagrants, junkies or career criminals. This week’s seven includes a fireman, an electrician and a journalist; several are fathers, two were keen weightlifters, one bred dogs. French trials helpfully begin with a personality profile formed from interviews with the men, their friends and colleagues. Poverty, domestic violence and mental breakdowns feature, but also that a man is “kind” or “gentle”, had a lovely childhood, adored his grandparents or is devoted to his mum.

But one question overshadows all others. How many men would have done the same? If Pelicot could recruit at least 70 willing participants (a number could not be identified) within a 25-mile radius of Mazan, the Provençal town where the couple retired, how many in the whole of France? As I walk through Avignon with Juliette Campion of radio station France Info, who bears the strain of reporting this case since September, she gestures to a bureau de tabac: “You think, ‘Would a guy in there have raped Gisèle? Or men in the boulangerie or those on the street?’ Women are looking at men differently: they’re asking, ‘Could you or you or you?’ ”

In court, I hear another psychiatrist tasked with assessing whether each of the final seven defendants has the profile of a sexual abuser. One by one, he exonerates the men, saying they are not dangerous or likely to reoffend, to the growing exasperation of Gisèle’s team. Then he reaches Charly A. “He doesn’t search [for victims] systematically,” says the psychiatrist. “He’s not a predator.” Finally, Babonneau explodes: “Six times with a sleeping woman and he’s not a sexual abuser?” The men do not identify as rapists because, like this psychiatrist, they define rape as frenzied sexual violence, not an opportunistic act performed to whispers in a private home. As one defendant put it, “It’s her husband, his house, his room, his bed, his wife.”

Aveline Mon 09-Dec-24 18:24:40

Surely they'll all get jail time? I expect their families will disown them too. A chilly Christmas for them. Good!

SueDonim Mon 09-Dec-24 18:41:04

According to the BBC, the maximum sentence for rape in France is 20 years. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj3md2yzy2xo

M0nica Mon 09-Dec-24 20:52:10

Oreo, over 33 years we spent approximately 2 months a year in France. 66 months 5.5 years. We bought a rundown house did it up and extended it working with local contractors using local builders merchants and DIY stores

We lived in a rural area and knew our neighbours well. We bought and read local papers and French magazines when we were there and read them online when we were not. Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

Over those years we experienced all kinds of changes in life style and attitudes in France, much as in the UK. of course French culture differs from ours in many ways, but that does not stop one knowing about it.

undine I am completely with pascal30 rape is sex without consent. tRape can be aggravated by violence, abuse and other factors, but if the woman says NO and the man goes ahead, it is rape, including in marriage. End of.

Iam64 Tue 10-Dec-24 08:47:49

fancythat

NotSpaghetti

I'm not thinking about men in this small area of France.
These "ordinary" men are everywhere in my opinion.

You cannot pick out a sex offender by looking at them, working with them, socialising or praying with them.

They are living next door to us - and in all obvious ways are just like the loving, decent, thoughtful and generous people we married.

Absolutely.

From what little I know, they can, like Saville, use "helping charities" as a useful cover.

Thanks FGT for starting this thread , it’s encouraged good discussions

NotSpaghetti is so right in stressing sex offenders live and work amongst us. Hiding in plain site was such an appropriate way to describe Saville and applies well to so many sex offenders.
The crimes against Mdme Pelicot are horrific. Undies suggestion that somehow they’re ‘lesser’ than other forms of rape is imo way off the mark. She’s been drugged and sold out by her husband for years. He’s escorted her to their doctor, claiming the sexually transmitted diseases she’s been given were the result of her affairs. The same doctor presumably who was doling out the sedatives.

I don’t believe these offences could only happen in France. There are many men who view women with disdain.

Dickens Tue 10-Dec-24 09:06:38

M0nica

*Oreo*, over 33 years we spent approximately 2 months a year in France. 66 months 5.5 years. We bought a rundown house did it up and extended it working with local contractors using local builders merchants and DIY stores

We lived in a rural area and knew our neighbours well. We bought and read local papers and French magazines when we were there and read them online when we were not. Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

Over those years we experienced all kinds of changes in life style and attitudes in France, much as in the UK. of course French culture differs from ours in many ways, but that does not stop one knowing about it.

undine I am completely with pascal30 rape is sex without consent. tRape can be aggravated by violence, abuse and other factors, but if the woman says NO and the man goes ahead, it is rape, including in marriage. End of.

👏👏👏

Sex without consent, or the physical or mental capability to give consent, is rape.

Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

I have a sister-in-law who's lived in rural France for the last 40+ years, and she echoes what you've said about the lifestyle, culture and attitudes, etc.

pascal30 Tue 10-Dec-24 10:55:08

Dickens

M0nica

Oreo, over 33 years we spent approximately 2 months a year in France. 66 months 5.5 years. We bought a rundown house did it up and extended it working with local contractors using local builders merchants and DIY stores

We lived in a rural area and knew our neighbours well. We bought and read local papers and French magazines when we were there and read them online when we were not. Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

Over those years we experienced all kinds of changes in life style and attitudes in France, much as in the UK. of course French culture differs from ours in many ways, but that does not stop one knowing about it.

undine I am completely with pascal30 rape is sex without consent. tRape can be aggravated by violence, abuse and other factors, but if the woman says NO and the man goes ahead, it is rape, including in marriage. End of.

👏👏👏

Sex without consent, or the physical or mental capability to give consent, is rape.

Our experience of France went well beyond 'a holiday experience'.

I have a sister-in-law who's lived in rural France for the last 40+ years, and she echoes what you've said about the lifestyle, culture and attitudes, etc.

You certainly get a strong sense of French Cultural values when you spend a lot of time in Rural areas especially if you get invited in to eat with families.. which I imagine you did Monica..

Freshair Fri 13-Dec-24 00:27:50

Most men are nothing but dogs. This case has made me look at men in a completely different light, it's actually scarred me hearing what these rapist did to her. The husband facilitating the abuse of his wife is probably the worst story I've heard. Although something really bothers me. Her vaginas and anus must have been very badly injured. Did she not have to seek medical help for this? I'm in no way victim blaming but over 10 years of what must have been extremely debilitating does make me wonder if she knew something was going on, even if she thought it was her husband, if she had no recollection, she must have sought help for her memory loss and must have been physically examined. The body doesn't recover quickly from these acts of penetration..can someone here tell me if she was seen by doctors and whether they were called to give evidence, and if so, why they didn't raise safeguarding concerns with the police?

CariadAgain Fri 13-Dec-24 12:19:49

Freshair

Most men are nothing but dogs. This case has made me look at men in a completely different light, it's actually scarred me hearing what these rapist did to her. The husband facilitating the abuse of his wife is probably the worst story I've heard. Although something really bothers me. Her vaginas and anus must have been very badly injured. Did she not have to seek medical help for this? I'm in no way victim blaming but over 10 years of what must have been extremely debilitating does make me wonder if she knew something was going on, even if she thought it was her husband, if she had no recollection, she must have sought help for her memory loss and must have been physically examined. The body doesn't recover quickly from these acts of penetration..can someone here tell me if she was seen by doctors and whether they were called to give evidence, and if so, why they didn't raise safeguarding concerns with the police?

We've been told she did go and see the doctor - more than once. But that husband of hers made sure he went with her - in order to censor what they talked about. Since she mistakenly thought he was "normal" and they had a "happy marriage" then I guess it's not surprising she didn't look to see a different doctor and not tell him where she was going.

Elegran Fri 13-Dec-24 15:04:51

Most men would NOT have done what these men are accused of, and particularly NOT what her husband has admitted doing.

Freshair Fri 13-Dec-24 15:48:43

Men have one thing on their mind and given half the chance they'd have sex with a woman (or a man) who facilitates it..this is what I mean when I say 'most men' - obviously these rapists actively engaged on the Web with this evil husband so they went looking for something out of the ordinary. The husband sounds so controlling and sinister in what he set out to do. Any good doctor/GP would have asked to see their patient privately (without any additional person present). Aren't the medical professionals trained to spot coercion?

Jaxjacky Fri 13-Dec-24 16:29:33

Non consensual sex is not against the law in Françe.

Galaxy Fri 13-Dec-24 17:07:50

I dont understand what you mean. Non consensual sex is rape surely.

MissInterpreted Fri 13-Dec-24 17:15:34

Galaxy

I dont understand what you mean. Non consensual sex is rape surely.

I was about to say the same. Don't understand that comment at all.

Allira Fri 13-Dec-24 17:24:59

MissInterpreted

Galaxy

I dont understand what you mean. Non consensual sex is rape surely.

I was about to say the same. Don't understand that comment at all.

In this country, the UK, and others then yes, but not in all countries.

PARIS — It may have taken a horrifying mass rape trial for France to include the notion of consent in its legislation.

New Justice Minister Didier Migaud said on Friday during an interview on radio station France Inter that he was in favor of rewriting the legal definition of rape in France to include consent.

French law currently defines rape as “any act of sexual penetration of any kind whatsoever, or any oral-genital act committed … by violence, coercion, threat or surprise.” The need to seek each party’s consent is not explicitly mentioned.

Politico
September 27, 2024

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-24 17:30:20

The current legal definition of rape in France includes violence, coercion, threat or surprise but does not include consent.

Macron said in March of this year that he was in favour of having consent added.

MissInterpreted Fri 13-Dec-24 17:36:17

Wow, that's appalling.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-24 17:39:43

It is MissA and may 'explain' why one of the accused b.....ds doesn't see himself as a rapist tchangry.

pascal30 Fri 13-Dec-24 18:11:20

Has everyone seen the Channel 5 documentary.. M. Pelicot also spent 5 years going to rape a woman drugged by her husband a co-conspiritor,, he is also being looked at by Police as someone involved in the rapes and one death of 4 young women in Paris..

Gisele is a true inspiration to women around the world who have previously not found the courage to pursue the perpetrator.. 94% of cases in France do not get to court

Jaxjacky Fri 13-Dec-24 19:04:31

Thank you pascal

Galaxy Fri 13-Dec-24 19:29:20

Thank you. That's helpful information.
The conviction rate in this country is 5%. I dont know the figures of percentage going to court kn this country but as it seems fairly pointless going to court with that conviction rate I dont know that it matters.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-24 19:33:03

I didn't see the entire documentary pascal but did see one of the accused claiming to be 'more of a feminist than feminists'!!!

Oreo Fri 13-Dec-24 19:33:23

Smileless2012

It is MissA and may 'explain' why one of the accused b.....ds doesn't see himself as a rapist tchangry.

…..and why they may not get jail time.

Freshair Fri 13-Dec-24 20:19:14

Shows that "without consent" needs to be added to the definition. It would be hideous if this case found in the rapists' favour on a technicality. The lawyers representing them are asking for these rapists to be acquitted on the grounds that the husband manipulated them. Shocking isn't it.

FriedGreenTomatoes2 Fri 13-Dec-24 20:40:15

I think sentencing starts next Tuesday 17th December?
Let’s hope justice for Mdme Pelicot is served. 🤞

Aveline Sat 14-Dec-24 09:49:52

Surely those men will get serious custodial sentences. If not, then I expect a massive reaction from the women of France and around the world.