winter fuel payment and the government,

And yet, no means testing for handing out school breakfasts-and before school care whether parents can afford to pay for them or not.

Means-testing school breakfasts would cost a fortune. Children don't have means to test, so it would involve getting parents to declare their incomes and outgoings, which is never a 'fair' way to decide who is given money and who isn't. Quite apart from the expense and intrusiveness, lives are complicated, and having an apparently good income doesn't necessarily equate to having a good disposable one.

Should children be segregated by parental income anyway, with one 'set' getting breakfast and another not? I remember the 'free dinners' queue at school - it was very obvious who qualified. I'm sure teachers are less discriminatory nowadays, but a two-tier system is always going to be tricky to get right, and as with the WFA there will be people on the threshold of being able to claim.

If this government are saying they can’t afford to pay the WFA how would they pay all those billions to families or people of any age?

By only paying it to those who need it, instead of everyone over 66? Would it be billions? If so, we really need to wonder at a system that puts so many people in poverty in such a rich country. I would prefer to see bills lowered for all, but shareholders would doubtless complain about that. Whatever level of means-test is applied to WFA there will be people just above it, and usually because they have saved into a pension. No government will want to deter people from saving by penalising them if they have done so - it's counterproductive to encourage more people to claim benefits, but what is the point of saving if you are going to be worse off for doing so?

In time, automatic enrolment into workplace pensions should mean that fewer people are unable to pay energy bills when they retire. Rises in the minimum wage should ensure that no-one in work is in that position either, but I'm less confident about that, as too many people are more concerned about profits for employers than about employees.

MissAdventure

If someone has a health reason for needing extra heat, they could apply for pip, or attendance allowance.
They should, because that is what it is meant to do.

Cover the extra costs caused by a long term illness or disability.

Not across the board, someone can have arthritis but not deemed bad enough for Pip or attendance allowance, but still feel very uncomfortable and in pain when it's cold. I have osteo arthritis and can cope because I put the heating on and refuse to be in pain, stiff and cold.
I drive, and put the heating on in the car, and when I walk, I treated myself to a very thick and warm coat.
The wfa would help with my heating costs, but I lost it due to getting the new state pension and having a occupational pension. Some pensioners who are just over the limit for PC are scared of putting the heating on. It really is not right or fair.

Jane43

VANECAM

ukhsa.blog.gov.uk/2014/10/21/preventing-avoidable-deaths-this-winter/
Government Recommended minimum temperature drops 3 points to 18 degrees.

18 degrees is what our thermostat is set at and we find it warm enough, neither of us likes to be too hot.

I don't enjoy hothouse temperatures either. I believe 18 degrees is the recommended temperature for the elderly indoors but some will want it warmer than that.

Love it. Same old excuses.
It’s OK to use you qualify to get WFP depending on income
but suggest that free meals should be handed out regardless of income because it would be too difficult
Even parents who can afford to send their children to private schools, (but may chose not to), or can afford to drive their children miles to a more suitable school can expect free breakfasts and free childcare whilst eating those breakfasts.

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

If I was in the position that i couldn’t afford heating I would have it on regardless.
Then when I got the threatening letter I would tell them to take me to court 😡

That's exactly what I do.
I always think they can just damn well wait for any money I owe.

My need is greater, and I'm buggered if I'm going to sit cold and uncomfortable in my own home.

Mollygo

Love it. Same old excuses.
It’s OK to use you qualify to get WFP depending on income
but suggest that free meals should be handed out regardless of income because it would be too difficult
Even parents who can afford to send their children to private schools, (but may chose not to), or can afford to drive their children miles to a more suitable school can expect free breakfasts and free childcare whilst eating those breakfasts.

If that was directed at me, I believe that bills should be lowered for everyone. No excuses. I am not in favour of means-testing, for the reasons I have outlined ad nauseam, but when children are going cold and hungry I can't justify giving money to people based entirely on age.

I have nothing against giving children free breakfasts - nurturing the young is surely as important as protecting the old? I didn't make the connection between the two, anyway. You did.

petra

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

If I was in the position that i couldn’t afford heating I would have it on regardless.
Then when I got the threatening letter I would tell them to take me to court 😡

I agree.. if enough people do it some changes would be made..

pascal30 I tend to think that the people who will struggle to pay their bills will not use their heating out of fear. These people will have always played by the rules, so to speak. Yet now being penalised. Dreadful. In fact it should be classed as a criminal act by this government.

petra

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

If I was in the position that i couldn’t afford heating I would have it on regardless.
Then when I got the threatening letter I would tell them to take me to court 😡

While I was driving home this afternoon, there was an item about flu and covid on the Classic fm news. A government lady (minister?) came on and said to put your heating on and keep warm even if you can't afford it.
Err, so what will happen if you can't pay?
And I wasn't aware that being vold actually caused covid or flu like she implied it did.

*cold not vold

love0c

pascal30 I tend to think that the people who will struggle to pay their bills will not use their heating out of fear. These people will have always played by the rules, so to speak. Yet now being penalised. Dreadful. In fact it should be classed as a criminal act by this government.

I think you are right love OC.. it's people who wouldn't dream of doing anything they think is illegal who will suffer most if they can't afford decent heating. There should be a big campaign to encourage civil disobedience in this case..

DD
I have nothing against giving children free breakfasts - nurturing the young is surely as important as protecting the old? I didn't make the connection between the two, anyway. You did.

Yes I did make that connection.
It’s quite strange that it should be right to give parents who don’t need it, the chance to get their children fed and cared for for free, but that people who may not fit the exact criteria for WFP should not be protected as you put it.
Even KS had a problem with the WFP. Wrong if Sunak was cancelling it, but right if he did it, so the two-facedness of his attitude to not protecting people who might need but don’t qualify for WFP and his willingness to give handouts to parents who don’t need it is not really surprising.

You however imply that I am against giving children free breakfasts which is untrue.

madeleine45

How pleased the government must be, with this cold snap approaching. They should really save a lot of money now. Now we will no longe get the fuel payment and cannot afford to heat and eat, the very cold weather should finish quite a lot of us off, either by weakening us so that we get ill and dont get taken to hospital as no space. Then quite a few people who could survive if they were warm enough, had some food and someone to call on them, But with everything cut back , they should kill quite a lot of us. Then they can all mouth meaninless waffle and say theywill look into it. if they kill off enough of us and of course those of us waspi women who have been cheated out of our money wll no doubt be part of this group. All the politicians are as bad as one another. I know thqat not one politician will lose a moments sleep because we shall be in such a state. Well I have news for them> I shall hope to stay alive until I am 103 and will annoy the lot of them by stayng alive!!!!!!!

Yes, the current administration's idea of a Triple Lock will certainly sink a lot of pensioners: firstly abolishing the Winter Fuel Allowance, secondly turning down the WASPI'S, and just to put the icing on the cake there won't be any action - if any - on Social-Lack-Of-Care until 2028. At least.

Socialists? Don't make me laugh.

Doodledog

I would like to see the WFP reinstated, but given to everyone who ‘deserves’ it. That would include young people with families - people of all ages who can’t afford to put the heating on despite working (where they can, or when they could).

I don’t think it’s fair to give it based on age as opposed to need, and regardless of contributions.

I agree

People who think it’s a good idea to not pay their fuel bills and to hell with the consequences may not be aware that they will be fitted with a Pay As You Go meter. It will be loaded so any outstanding debt is paid off by including it in each payment. This means you are constantly feeding a monster just to keep warm and even during the summer months you are paying a higher rate.

A friend of mine fell into this trap a few years ago. She was with British Gas and they refused to change the meter back even after the debt was paid as they deemed her a high risk customer.

Totally agree Allsorts

They should really save a lot of money now
How and how much?^

Now we will no longe(Sic) get the fuel payment
It is still available for the poorest.

Now we ... cannot afford to heat and eat
Who are "we". If you cannot heat and eat there is a great deal of help available, and remember there are Cold Weather Payment that go to the poorest if the temperature drops. Please ask.

Meaninless waffle^ it certainly exists madeleine45.

Allsorts

I feel so sorry for those unable to keep warm, it's heartbreaking. What on earth has this country come to and still we keep taking more people each day, it's daft.

How many do you personally know who are in this situation?

pascal30

petra

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

If I was in the position that i couldn’t afford heating I would have it on regardless.
Then when I got the threatening letter I would tell them to take me to court 😡

I agree.. if enough people do it some changes would be made..

As I’ve already pointed out, BG and other energy providers will not cut off, or take pensioners to court ( or the Poor House, as some like to use emotive language).
If you feel that due to the loss of the WFP you will struggle to pay, then contact your energy provider. Or just look at their website.

merlotgran

People who think it’s a good idea to not pay their fuel bills and to hell with the consequences may not be aware that they will be fitted with a Pay As You Go meter. It will be loaded so any outstanding debt is paid off by including it in each payment. This means you are constantly feeding a monster just to keep warm and even during the summer months you are paying a higher rate.

A friend of mine fell into this trap a few years ago. She was with British Gas and they refused to change the meter back even after the debt was paid as they deemed her a high risk customer.

I've never fallen into it, as I know it's charged at a higher rate, even without arrears added.

I never refuse to pay, so, what are they to do, since they can't get blood out of a stone.

Better for them to accept that I can only pay a small amount at a time.

cornergran

18 degrees is too cold in our home if we’re not active. I have a chronic pain condition and an autoimmune condition, both worsen to unmanageable if I get cold. My husband has heart valve issues and has been advised to be very careful in cold weather. We’re OK on 18 when we’re moving and busy, if we need to rest or simply want to relax then 21 is the minimum comfort level.

It seems to me there can’t be a one size fits all with home temperature. A wheelchair user will likely feel the cold far more than someone mobile and physically active. The document in the link above acknowledges this.

Surely , with all your problems you are getting Attendance Allowance? If not please do apply. It is not means tested and some could go towards your fuel costs.

I must admit I thought 18°was the minimum recommended overnight. If you a sitting still it would be wise to wrap up in rugs with a hot water-bottle. It's very cosy and they do say it's cheaper to heat the body rather than heat the room.

You could also contact you council who may be able to help.

love0c

pascal30 I tend to think that the people who will struggle to pay their bills will not use their heating out of fear. These people will have always played by the rules, so to speak. Yet now being penalised. Dreadful. In fact it should be classed as a criminal act by this government.

I tend to think that the people who will struggle to pay their bills will not use their heating out of fear.

... yes, they are probably more afraid of being in arrears than they are afraid of being cold.

What is criminal is that, as we all know, there are those who will be above the cut-off point who will struggle and Reeves has not given them sufficient to to plan / save / budget for the amount that I'm sure many will have relied on this month (in particular), nor to go through the faff of applying for any benefits that might be available (assuming they're not eligible for PC).

She has out-Toried the Tories - it's not so much the fact that they are pensioners, more that when there is an economic burden to be borne, it's always shouldered by those with the least.

madeleine45

How pleased the government must be, with this cold snap approaching. They should really save a lot of money now. Now we will no longe get the fuel payment and cannot afford to heat and eat, the very cold weather should finish quite a lot of us off, either by weakening us so that we get ill and dont get taken to hospital as no space. Then quite a few people who could survive if they were warm enough, had some food and someone to call on them, But with everything cut back , they should kill quite a lot of us. Then they can all mouth meaninless waffle and say theywill look into it. if they kill off enough of us and of course those of us waspi women who have been cheated out of our money wll no doubt be part of this group. All the politicians are as bad as one another. I know thqat not one politician will lose a moments sleep because we shall be in such a state. Well I have news for them> I shall hope to stay alive until I am 103 and will annoy the lot of them by stayng alive!!!!!!!

I totally agree with every word of your post.
This government is beyond cruel to the elderly and disabled

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

Agreed