The NHS will test all children who believe they are transgender for autism under new plans seen by The Telegraph.

Allira there was nothing that could be done at that time. However, my post wasn't about spina bifida, per se. It was about the changes in knowledge - changes yet to come. I apologise if I didn't make that clear. It is, as you may imagine, a difficult topic for me.

Galaxy

Oh for goodness sake five minutes ago you were calling these discussions hate speech, I would say that's a good way to try and shut down speech.

If that was addressed to me, where did I say that or anything approaching that Galaxy?

If not me then where did anyone else say it?

Doodledog, I don't know who suggested that being female is a flaw. Where did that come from?

Everyone has flawed genes, mutations in our DNA. Some are affected by them, some seem to produce their own gene therapy. Most of this will be beyond the understanding of the majority of the population. We, after all, are not trained or educated in this sphere.

Are you suggesting that if it can be shown that transgenderism is a 'flaw' and therefore not the 'fault' of the people concerned women should just forget the fact that males have stronger bodies, different hormones and are socialised differently, and let them in?

No. I said nothing along those lines.

... it is about how to protect women and allow us privacy and dignity in same-sex spaces.

It's about everyone's rights, women, transgender and men. Bringing it down to toilets undermines the complexity of the issues.

Opinion not option!

Strange that you’re trying to close down my right to have an opinion because it doesn’t match yours

Mollygo on re-reading Politics Nerd’s post several times, with respect, she is not trying to close down your option - just the opposite; she acknowledges your right to hold that opinion but also the right of others to hold a different opinion.

You apparently don’t appreciate anything I say, but that’s your prerogative.

I’m not discussing gender, which some have used to conflate the issue PN. I’m talking about biological sex.

You can challenge me, or the Supreme Court about biological sex. It won’t make the slightest difference.
Strange that you’re trying to close down my right to have an opinion because it doesn’t match yours.

Many babies with spina bifida survive and can live long lives with medical care,depending on the severity of the condition. Yes, vitamin deficiency can be a factor but there are other causes too.

Put simply, sex is determined at conception by the sperm. Male or female characteristics develop over the first few weeks in utero but the sex is already determined.

Oh for goodness sake five minutes ago you were calling these discussions hate speech, I would say that's a good way to try and shut down speech.

Mollygo I appreciate your strong feelings on this topic and the importance you place on your own understanding of gender.

No one is denying you the right to hold those opinions but you are denying those who may have different views based on their experiences, evolving knowledge and a belief in critical thinking.

This is a place for debate and discussion. No one owns the right to have their opinions go unchallenged. While it’s okay for us to disagree, I don't believe it's okay to try and close down views simply because you see them as opposing or questioning yours.

Thank you Doodledog. You put that so well.

Isn't spina bifida something to do with folic acid? I don't know, but that rings a bell, and whether it is or not, doctors do know what causes it.

I don't see being female as a flaw, however it is interpreted, but as I keep saying, gametes, chromosomes and DNA are all particular to one sex or the other. In any case, it doesn't matter why, for the purposes of the ECHR ruling. Are you suggesting that if it can be shown that transgenderism is a 'flaw' and therefore not the 'fault' of the people concerned women should just forget the fact that males have stronger bodies, different hormones and are socialised differently, and let them in? This is not about blame, or 'flaws' - it is about how to protect women and allow us privacy and dignity in same-sex spaces.

PoliticsNerd

^As long as ‘knowing little about’ isn’t used to deny what we do know.^

And what's that Mollygo? What do you "know"?

We do know that you can’t change sex.
We do know that the ruling confirms the fact that only biological females are women.

I do know that there is still dissent about that from those who don’t want it to be true, and use what they don’t know
to deny what we do know.

Interrupted!

Doodledog

In utero development has nothing whatsoever to do with 'gender' and everything to do with sex.

Of course all embryos have female characteristics (which is why men have nipples), but that is normal development, and by the time the baby is born it has a sex.

So why Doodledog, do some embryos have a fault in the development of the spinal cord which leaves a gap or split in the spine. And why, if that can happen, can't any expected development be interpreted or flawed?

As long as ‘knowing little about’ isn’t used to deny what we do know.

And what's that Mollygo? What do you "know"?

In utero development has nothing whatsoever to do with 'gender' and everything to do with sex.

Of course all embryos have female characteristics (which is why men have nipples), but that is normal development, and by the time the baby is born it has a sex.

Such a passive aggressive, sneering post PoliticNerd; quite ironic that you reference confident ignorance whilst missing your own mistakes.

PoliticsNerd
so why deny there may be some that as yet we know little about

Who’s doing that? I must have missed it. Could you indicate where it happened?

As long as ‘knowing little about’ isn’t used to deny what we do know.

Macadia

This is a very interesting discussion topic. Gender seems to be a spectrum. All humans are presumed female until their 5th or 6th week in the womb when their chromosomes force them into males (I'm not a biologist or educated so I'm just guessing). Could it be that something occurs during that time period that doesn't develop commonly? I am writing this as a parent to an autistic child.

The ability to say you don't know is one we should rate more highly, Macadia. The Dunning-Kruger effect (sometimes called confident ignorance) seems to be stearing the world at the moment. I followed up on your comments and found this.

During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically [what you can see] female. After approximately 6 to 7 weeks of gestation, however, the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome induces changes that result in the development of the testes.

None of us are born "perfect" but most "imperfections" are small and don't affect our lives. I am a lone twin: my twin died shortly after birth. There was no treatment for spina bifida and hydrocephalus in those days. That was a catastrophic defect and we must all have come across others, small and large, so why deny there may be some that as yet we know little about?

Scary Carlotta to read that.
I hope Liz isn’t sending money to her boy.

Sadly that sounds only too familiar Carlotta

Carlotta
The behaviour of the group that is “helping him to fit in” sounds exactly like the actions faced by my DGD from a girl who decided she was a boy, gathered a group of acolytes and bullied the hell out of anyone who didn’t join in with the
breast binding,
change your name,
let’s stop the girls using the boy’s toilets, (girls’school)
demand punishment for anyone you hear referring to you as she or you wrong name,
Suffer from transphobic parents,
“stand up for your right to have surgery”
etc.^ group.
Whilst anyone who did join was welcomed, encouraged to do all those things.
Worth noting that the ringleader promoted all those, but only did the name change/pronoun and block the girls from using the toilets. Her parents were evidently sooo understanding.

One of the mums in my social group has 4 children; 3 independent adults, 1 teenager. Teenager is diagnosed autistic with ADHD and has always struggled socially with finding and keeping friends; as Liz says "he's never been able to find his tribe". He's an academically gifted lad; straight As and got his first choice of university. First few months at uni were very difficult for him; he was well out of his comfort zone, was lonely and kept asking to come home. But, as if by magic, he suddenly settled down; said he'd been befriended by a group on campus who included him and didn't make him feel "different". When he came home for Christmas vacation, it was obvious that he wasn't taking his medication, something he'd always been meticulous about; his behaviour was all over the place, not able to settle to anything and it was clear that, without his ADHD medication, he wasn’t making much sense. During a particularly loud and angry outburst he revealed that he hadn't been taking his medication for weeks because, according to his new uni friends, he isn't, and never was, autistic or had ADHD. What his real problem was was that he was actually a trans woman but had never realised it until he met his friends who had pointed it out to him. They were the LGBTQ group. He insisted that his Christian name was now his "deadname" and he was now to be known as "Jenny" and if they called him anything else, he'd never come home again.

Liz knows that her son isn't trans gender; he's lonely, looking for friends who accept his quirks and oddities and stop him from always feeling like a square peg in a round hole. And the LGBTQ fitted that gap. On the advice of his friends, he refuses to see or speak with any medic because "they'll try to convince you that you're autistic and ADHD again and put you back on medication you don't need". What he has done is, with help from his friends, found an online supplier of Finasteride and testosterone blockers; no prescription, no questions asked. He's also travelled to Poland to buy them directly from a supplier. Liz is distraught with worry and fear for what damage he's doing to his health but doesn't know where to turn to. The university pastoral care is "sympathetic but, as he's 18, he's legally an adult and they can only offer support if he approaches them". He won't do that; he's just so delighted that he's finally found a circle of friends who accept him. He hasn't been home since Christmas and only phones to ask for more money for his drugs.

Wyllow3

Thinking of the gender stereotype issue - we have the likes of Tate and co pushing on boys what they should be and its very misogyistic - if the TV series "Adolescence" is anything to go by its a terribly regrettable step back from where we were where both boys and girls didnt have to conform. Its been suggested that this should be shown and discussed in schools.

I agree Wyllow.

We appear to be living in an age where stereotypical gender conformity for both male & female is growing at pace.

Individuality, particularly in terms of appearance, seems even less acceptable now than a few decades ago.

In relation to careers chosen by females, here’s an interesting piece of research. It shows that, despite many initiatives to encourage females to enter STEM careers, the percentages are still far lower than for males. It seems that gender stereotypes play a large part in this.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/inequalities/2024/12/04/the-gender-gap-in-stem/

Well indeed, FGT, of course.