Underachievement of white boys

growstuff

Personally, I think there should be an alternative curriculum from about the age of 14 (Year 9 or 10). I'm not in favour of the 11+ because it's too young and there have always been problems with it. However, by the age of about 14, it's fairly obvious which pupils are not going to be motivated by traditional exams. There should be an alternative curriculum with recognition of achievement in a range of non-traditional skills. I wouldn't target it at any particular demographic. In any case, each area is likely to have different needs, so I wouldn't give extra support specifically to white boys or black girls (or whatever). I would consider each individual pupil on his/her merits.

Blimey growstuff I am in total agreement with you.

I wouldn’t do away with grammar schools, but encouraging a 13+ test would be a good move forward.

(I know that at least one of our local’ish (is that even a word 🤷‍♀️) has a limited intake in year 9)

JohnnyMo

Chocolatelovinggran

What role do parents play in this? There's lots on this thread about school teachers " see boys as a problem to be managed while the girls are taught" ( sweeping, judgemental criticism of a whole profession, at all?), sport, government keeping them down to provide soldiers ( any data to support this?), the only reference to families is to point to single parents.
Growstuff is right, there's a problem with underachievers from a certain demographic, which is worthy of some more thoughtful discussion.

Maybe with hindsight I should have said SOME female teachers, but I stand by that that some female teacher do have that attitude even if subconsciously.

As I pointed out towards the start EVERY other demographic which is underachieving gets targeted help, something growstuff has not addressed.

I didn't address it because it's not true. The only universal support in English schools is from Pupil Premium, which schools are free to spend as they wish. Unfortunately, schools are still under pressure to produce results for the data crunchers. After analysing their results, if they spot that a certain group is underachieving, it is very tempting to direct funding towards that group to keep Ofsted and the wonks in Whitehall happy.

GrannyGravy13

To be fair, the media is full of BAME people telling its viewer about white privilege.

We have now got the likes of the Tates and others on social media telling boys to man up and take charge, which then leads on to endless programmes and documentary about male toxicity.

It is hard for a young white boy in the 21st century.

Some thrive with a cushion of a supportive family, a safe place to do school work and a healthy attitude. Many haven’t got these things that most of us would take for granted.

Basically some of these lads slip through various nets feel that nobody cares about them, there is nothing out in the big wide world for them unless they are an influencer, sports person or similar, education is not a priority.

Excellent comments.👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

GrannyGravy The issue with the grammar schools in your area is that they're not available everywhere and they not highly selective. They're not so selective as the grammar schools in Chelmsford and Colchester. Some of the pupils in them would be better off in a less academic environment. The local comp in my town usually achieves higher average results than the Southend grammar schools.

Unfortunately, schools are still under pressure to produce results for the data crunchers.

Yes.
Children are treated as one homogenous mass not as individuals with different strengths and talents according to governments.
Numeracy and literacy are important but not everyone will find the type of Maths taught in schools useful in their future lives.

I expect there are many reasons for the under achievement of white boys - although I think this under achievement relates largely to white boys who live in deprived areas.

There are large areas of the country that are very deprived - with poor housing and transport, and poor employment opportunities. Schools in these areas have difficulty in attracting experienced and skilled teachers - they are more likely to want to live and work in more leafy, attractive areas where there are less social problems. These areas tend to have been ignored, whereas more investment should be directed towards them.

People from ethnic backgrounds are more likely to live in cities or large towns where, even when there is deprivation on an individual level, there is better access to transport and public amenities - libraries (with access to computers), museums, parks, youth clubs. There are always pockets of deprivation in large towns and cities, particularly with regard to housing, but, generally, there are compensating factors.

White disadvantage tends to be generational and leads to cycles of deprivation and a feeling passed down that education is a waste of time. This is particularly so when there are few, mostly low paid, local employment opportunities. In such circumstances, it is difficult to create an environment where young people feel motivated to learn.

Young people whose parents were born elsewhere, where things like education (which are taken for granted by the resident UK population), have to be paid for, are often brought up to take full advantage of the educational opportunities that are available to them. They have a better understanding of what education can do for them, greater respect for teachers and greater aspirations with regard to employment.

I think another issue is our class system, in which people who have regional dialects and non-standard grammar, are stereotyped, ignored and overlooked. Although this is changing it still does happen occasionally - the villain or ne'er do well in a drama often has a cockney accent for instance.

I don’t think it’s a new phenomenon. When I was at school in the seventies there were streams, and the lowest stream then was full of boys who didn’t pay attention in class, and under-achieved. Perhaps the biggest difference was that they all left school at 16, and were employed as factory workers, labourers or apprentices rather than becoming NEETs, as they do now so often?

Kandinsky

*15.3% Of total intake into the combined UK Regular Forces and the Future Reserves 2020 were ethnic minorities (excluding white minorities*

So 85% white.

And you’re asking me for evidence?

Just refuting your earlier statement that the only people who join the army are white working class boys.

"We have to keep white working class boys down as they’re the only ones who join the army"

You also have to look at role models for these boys. So many are from single parent families or families reliant on benefits in areas where work is frowned upon. Who are their role models? Celebrities, footballers, people who drive fast cars with no visible job to support their lifestyle. Education is not important to these boys and never will be. They want to leave school as fast as they can. Art, history, geography etc are of no interest to these boys. Sport sport sport is all they care about, predominantly football.

JohnnyMo Sun 24-Aug-25 12:01:22
𝗔𝘀 𝗜 𝗽𝗼𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝘁𝗼𝘄𝗮𝗿𝗱𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗿𝘁 𝗘𝗩𝗘𝗥𝗬 𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗱𝗲𝗺𝗼𝗴𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗵𝗶𝗰 𝘄𝗵𝗶𝗰𝗵 𝗶𝘀 𝘂𝗻𝗱𝗲𝗿𝗮𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗴𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝘁𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗽, 𝘀𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗴𝗿𝗼𝘄𝘀𝘁𝘂𝗳𝗳 𝗵𝗮𝘀 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗮𝗱𝗱𝗿𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗲𝗱.
growstuff Sun 24-Aug-25 12:06:51
𝗜 𝗱𝗶𝗱𝗻'𝘁 𝗮𝗱𝗱𝗿𝗲𝘀𝘀 𝗶𝘁 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗮𝘂𝘀𝗲 𝗶𝘁'𝘀 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗲.

As I pointed out earlier :
JohnnyMo Sun 24-Aug-25 09:31:46

𝗣𝗹𝗲𝗻𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗲𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗴𝗶𝗿𝗹𝘀 𝘁𝗼 𝗱𝗼 𝗷𝗼𝗯𝘀 𝘁𝘆𝗽𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 𝘀𝗲𝗲𝗻 𝗮𝘀 𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸. 𝗔𝗹𝘀𝗼 𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗲𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗴𝗶𝗿𝗹𝘀 𝘁𝗼 𝗱𝗼 𝘀𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘄𝗲 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗷𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝗵𝗮𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘄𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗻'𝘀 𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼 𝗻𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗥𝘂𝗴𝗯𝘆 𝗪𝗼𝗿𝗹𝗱 𝗖𝘂𝗽.

𝗦𝗮𝗺𝗲 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗕𝗔𝗠𝗘 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗺𝘂𝗻𝗶𝘁𝗶𝗲𝘀, 𝗕𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗸 𝗛𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗿𝘆 𝗺𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗵 (𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝘄𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗜'𝘃𝗲 𝘀𝗲𝗲𝗻 𝗺𝗼𝘀𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗹𝗶𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗵𝗮𝗹𝗳 𝘁𝗿𝘂𝘁𝗵𝘀) 𝘀𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗰𝗮𝗻 𝗳𝗲𝗹𝗹 𝗴𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝗮𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗵𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗿𝘆. 𝗦𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗰𝗵 "𝗯𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗸 𝘀𝗰𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗮𝗿𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗽" 𝘁𝗼 𝘀𝗲𝗲 𝗵𝗼𝘄 𝗺𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗿𝗮𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱 𝘀𝗰𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗮𝗿𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗽𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗼𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗻 𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗼𝗽 𝗿𝗮𝗻𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗨𝗻𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘀𝗶𝘁𝗶𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗴𝗮𝗶𝗻𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗼𝗻𝗲 (𝗕𝗿𝗮𝗱𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗱 𝗨𝗻𝗶𝘃) 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘄𝗵𝗶𝘁𝗲 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗰𝗹𝗮𝘀𝘀 𝗯𝗼𝘆𝘀.

I can if you want give more examples DEI initiative
www.hee.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/documents/Action%20Plan%20to%20Improve%20Equity%20of%20Access%20and%20Inclusion%20for%20Black%2C%20Asian%20and%20Minority%20Ethnic%20Entrants%20to%20Clinical%20Psychology%20Training.pdf

Or look here
www.met.police.uk/police-forces/metropolitan-police/areas/c/careers/
and count how many white men you see.

Out of interest does anyone know what happened to the Flag Flying Thread this was spawned off ?

It was taken down at request of the op I think.

I don’t think it’s a new phenomenon.
I agree, check out the NCDS surveys from 1958 onwards, especially ^ Born to fail^, published in 1973. Stacks of information there.

Galaxy

It was taken down at request of the op I think.

Some responses were causing the OP distress.

JohnnyMo This really isn't true. White working class girls also underachieve. The difference is that they weren't ever expected to have jobs. They also tend to conform more to school ideals, so don't get into so much trouble at school.

I don't understand your obsession with sport. Even now, women's sport isn't in the same place as men's. All that's happening is that they are becoming more equal. They're not taking anything away from men.

It was rare for any group (except those with SEND) to have direct support in schools, although I know there are some vague initiatives to encourage certain groups.

You appear to be one of those men who are finding it difficult to accept that men have historically been at an advantage and are having to accept some equality.

I was a secondary school teacher for 30 years and I saw many underachieving working class children boys and girls. I also saw underachieving children of different ethnic backgrounds, although their parents tended to have more respect for schools and teachers and they were usually stricter with their children.

re the Flag Flying thread - I should think the response which suggested to the OP that things will get much worse unless something is done about the hotel/migrant problem wasn't exactly helpful to someone who was feeling very vulnerable.

I think we can see where you are coming from Johnny Mo, especially with your comments re encouraging girls to engage in all sorts of sports, and Black Lives Matter - "mostly lies and half truths" - really?

𝘌𝘭𝘰𝘦𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘯 𝘚𝘶𝘯 24-𝘈𝘶𝘨-25 15:22:40
𝙄 𝙩𝙝𝙞𝙣𝙠 𝙬𝙚 𝙘𝙖𝙣 𝙨𝙚𝙚 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝙮𝙤𝙪 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙘𝙤𝙢𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢 𝙅𝙤𝙝𝙣𝙣𝙮 𝙈𝙤, 𝙚𝙨𝙥𝙚𝙘𝙞𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝙬𝙞𝙩𝙝 𝙮𝙤𝙪𝙧 𝙘𝙤𝙢𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙨 𝙧𝙚 𝙚𝙣𝙘𝙤𝙪𝙧𝙖𝙜𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙜𝙞𝙧𝙡𝙨 𝙩𝙤 𝙚𝙣𝙜𝙖𝙜𝙚 𝙞𝙣 𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝙨𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙨 𝙤𝙛 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙨, 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝘽𝙡𝙖𝙘𝙠 𝙇𝙞𝙫𝙚𝙨 𝙈𝙖𝙩𝙩𝙚𝙧 - "𝙢𝙤𝙨𝙩𝙡𝙮 𝙡𝙞𝙚𝙨 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙝𝙖𝙡𝙛 𝙩𝙧𝙪𝙩𝙝𝙨" - 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮?

Some of the bits I know about BHM (rather than BLM) :

"The "Black" Roman Emperor is Septimius Severus and ruled from 193 to 211 AD. " His father was Roman, his mother was the daughter of a local chief from what is now Libya. So he was probably a bit darker that the average Roman but hardly a black African.

The life and times of Mary Jane Seacole rather than Florence Nightingale. Yes both nursed in the Crimea but that is where the similarities end. FN kept record, invented the pie-chart and changed government policy and nursing practice.

growstuff Sun 24-Aug-25 15:18:12

𝙅𝙤𝙝𝙣𝙣𝙮𝙈𝙤 𝙏𝙝𝙞𝙨 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝙞𝙨𝙣'𝙩 𝙩𝙧𝙪𝙚. 𝙒𝙝𝙞𝙩𝙚 𝙬𝙤𝙧𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙘𝙡𝙖𝙨𝙨 𝙜𝙞𝙧𝙡𝙨 𝙖𝙡𝙨𝙤 𝙪𝙣𝙙𝙚𝙧𝙖𝙘𝙝𝙞𝙚𝙫𝙚. 𝙏𝙝𝙚 𝙙𝙞𝙛𝙛𝙚𝙧𝙚𝙣𝙘𝙚 𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙬𝙚𝙧𝙚𝙣'𝙩 𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙚𝙭𝙥𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙚𝙙 𝙩𝙤 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙟𝙤𝙗𝙨.

I have said working class girls also under-achieve, as do Afro-Caribbean boys . But there are now initiative encouraging them to do what were historically men's job.

There is no initiative to encouraging boys into social care or even teaching. Where there are skill shortages at the moment.

𝙏𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙖𝙡𝙨𝙤 𝙩𝙚𝙣𝙙 𝙩𝙤 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙢 𝙢𝙤𝙧𝙚 𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙘𝙝𝙤𝙤𝙡 𝙞𝙙𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙨, 𝙨𝙤 𝙙𝙤𝙣'𝙩 𝙜𝙚𝙩 𝙞𝙣𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙤 𝙢𝙪𝙘𝙝 𝙩𝙧𝙤𝙪𝙗𝙡𝙚 𝙖𝙩 𝙨𝙘𝙝𝙤𝙤𝙡.

Which could be in part due to feminisation of education, making it harder for them to fit in.

𝙄 𝙙𝙤𝙣'𝙩 𝙪𝙣𝙙𝙚𝙧𝙨𝙩𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙮𝙤𝙪𝙧 𝙤𝙗𝙨𝙚𝙨𝙨𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙬𝙞𝙩𝙝 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩. 𝙀𝙫𝙚𝙣 𝙣𝙤𝙬, 𝙬𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙣'𝙨 𝙨𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩 𝙞𝙨𝙣'𝙩 𝙞𝙣 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙨𝙖𝙢𝙚 𝙥𝙡𝙖𝙘𝙚 𝙖𝙨 𝙢𝙚𝙣'𝙨. 𝘼𝙡𝙡 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩'𝙨 𝙝𝙖𝙥𝙥𝙚𝙣𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙗𝙚𝙘𝙤𝙢𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙢𝙤𝙧𝙚 𝙚𝙦𝙪𝙖𝙡. 𝙏𝙝𝙚𝙮'𝙧𝙚 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙩𝙖𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙖𝙣𝙮𝙩𝙝𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙖𝙬𝙖𝙮 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢 𝙢𝙚𝙣.

Professional sport is part of the entertainment industry.

When the men's Euros are on then it is about nationalism and beating the Germans. Not about get boys playing football. No one is saying to boys get off the computer and play sport.

𝙄𝙩 𝙬𝙖𝙨 𝙧𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙖𝙣𝙮 𝙜𝙧𝙤𝙪𝙥 ... 𝙖𝙡𝙩𝙝𝙤𝙪𝙜𝙝 𝙄 𝙠𝙣𝙤𝙬 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙨𝙤𝙢𝙚 𝙫𝙖𝙜𝙪𝙚 𝙞𝙣𝙞𝙩𝙞𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙫𝙚𝙨 𝙩𝙤 𝙚𝙣𝙘𝙤𝙪𝙧𝙖𝙜𝙚 𝙘𝙚𝙧𝙩𝙖𝙞𝙣 𝙜𝙧𝙤𝙪𝙥𝙨.

It is not that rare and every group except white working class boys.

𝙔𝙤𝙪 𝙖𝙥𝙥𝙚𝙖𝙧 𝙩𝙤 𝙗𝙚 𝙤𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙤𝙨𝙚 𝙢𝙚𝙣 𝙬𝙝𝙤 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙛𝙞𝙣𝙙𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙞𝙩 𝙙𝙞𝙛𝙛𝙞𝙘𝙪𝙡𝙩 𝙩𝙤 𝙖𝙘𝙘𝙚𝙥𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙢𝙚𝙣 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙝𝙞𝙨𝙩𝙤𝙧𝙞𝙘𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝙗𝙚𝙚𝙣 𝙖𝙩 𝙖𝙣 𝙖𝙙𝙫𝙖𝙣𝙩𝙖𝙜𝙚 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙤 𝙖𝙘𝙘𝙚𝙥𝙩 𝙨𝙤𝙢𝙚 𝙚𝙦𝙪𝙖𝙡𝙞𝙩𝙮.

But saying white men have had a historic advantage so none need help now is wrong.

JohnnyMo

While I agree it is nothing to do directly with other cultures, the issues as I see it is all other groups in a similar situation get targeted support.

Plenty of encouragement for girls to do jobs typically seen as men's work. Also encouragement for girls to do sport we have just had the women's Euro now the Rugby World Cup.

Same with the BAME communities, Black History month (from what I've seen mostly lies and half truths) so they can fell good about their history. Search "black scholarship" to see how many racially biased scholarships there are often at top ranking Universities against the one (Bradford Univ) for white working class boys.

So what are white boys offered. Being told from an early age their masculinity is Toxic, their history is exploitive. They have white privilege their wealth was stollen ...

All their teachers are probably women, who see them as a problem to be managed while the girls in the class are taught.

I don't think this is the only issue, I would echo Wyllow's experience that ethnic minority families traditionally value schooling more. This is a good thing for everyone in the schools they attend, I think.
I do have some sympathy though.The various schemes for ethnic minority and female young people, & the desire to have a diverse workplace with not too many white men is something my university educated son & his friends often point out. I think we've achieved a lot & broken down a lot of barriers & it was a very worthwhile excercise, but I don't know how much longer it can be justified as the children of the doctors, pharmacists, solicitors Wyllow mentions are now entering university / management training & it's crazy that they may have an advantage over white boys with unemployed parents when opportunities come up.

There definitely are a number of initiatives to encourage boys into teaching JohnnyMo?
I think it’s much harder to recruit young people into social care, whether male or female, it’s never been an attractive career option for the young because they just don’t have the life experience, or social antennae required generally speaking.

Oh dear Johnny the pie chart was invented by William Playfair..Scottish businessman,engineer and writer in 1801 Used by FN but definately not invented by her.You usually get asked for facts on this site…maybe check before you post!

A pupil in a large inner city comp asked me ‘How come that Vietnamese boy came here 2 years years ago, couldn’t speak English, but just got the best A level results in the school?’
I asked a Vietnamese friend in her 20s who had arrived, a ‘boat person’ a couple of years earlier.
She answered ‘If you are Vietnamese you realise that no one is going to do anything for you. You have to do it for yourself.’

Galaxy, Jaxjacky - I am not surprised that the unfortunate OP was caused distress by some comments. She had been open about her situation and feelings and asked for advice. Instead she inadvertently stirred up a nest of political tub-thumping.

Children of any ethnicity will only benefit from education if their parents are invested in it. If you are an underachieving child whose parents were also underachievers at school, you are likely to be in a spiral of decline. These parents are not sufficiently willing or able to nourish their children’s aspirations. This may be because they themselves struggled within the education system and don’t see the benefits of it for their children - they go to school because they have to - or for reasons of health or the sheer dead weight of trying to keep their heads above water. They may be one parent families. There are too many homes where parents don’t read to or with their children because they may struggle to read themselves and there is no culture of it within the family. I know for a fact that schools are trying desperately to stop these children falling through the net, but they struggle for resources and for staff.

Casdon

There definitely are a number of initiatives to encourage boys into teaching JohnnyMo?
I think it’s much harder to recruit young people into social care, whether male or female, it’s never been an attractive career option for the young because they just don’t have the life experience, or social antennae required generally speaking.

You are not going to increase male recruit treatment into teaching until the discipline issue is addressed, why would any graduate want a job where few had any respect for you. At least the police can enforce the rules if needed teachers are helpless