Underachievement of white boys

Doodledog Tue 26-Aug-25 19:01:09
Do you have stats that show one in three DV victims is male, please? I do feel that this sounds rather high, and am more familiar with the Refuge figures, but even if you are right, two thirds are women, which is a large majority.

HM Government ONS crime statistics, which is probably the most reliable and unbiased source I know off. As you say that sounds high which is my point, the perception of domestic abuse by gender and the reality don't match.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/domesticabuseprevalenceandvictimcharacteristicsappendixtables

JohnnyMo

You puzzle me.

IMO

I notice that you usually quote, you ask questions, you seem to mock, you seem to me to sometimes parody:

but you don't seem, except rarely, to tell us about you

I wanted to help when I thought here is a male who finds it difficult to express themselves, but you dont listen to some very wise people like Iam who are steeped in relevant experience

Are you male or female?

It would help to understand "where you are coming from.

Are you looking at it from a personal stance, or a political one

(ie as a political stance it is recognisably a collection of right wing and anti women statements)

(as a personal one it appears to be an avoidance of revealing who you are, as opposed to drawing out others to reveal where they stand)

This comes across to me as a cruel sort of game playing, at least not really treating other posters with respect. Are you a long term poster who has changed their name?

And yes, I suspect posters will notice if you just try to turn it around on me - as opposed - to actually answering the questions

I am a man, early 60's born and brought up in M'bro. Very working class family, Irish Catholic and still a regular church goer.

That background I can identify with the white working boys now being failed at school. I was probably in the top 5% in the school and did not achieve what is now considered the minimum standard. I still don't have an English Language O level.

University Degree, worked as a computer programmer and now retired. Family 3 daughters, the youngest has just completed her PhD in Uncertainty in measuring water quality in rivers.

Politically I would describe myself as centre-right, much more Cameron or even Clegg than Truss.

I don't agree with some of IMHO excessive woke politics which seem to be forced on society by a very small but loud section of the population.
1) I am much more concerned about slavery TODAY than 200 years ago.
2) Anyone genuinely suffering gender dysphonia will have my support but I want to see evidence you really are.
....

As I said I had a bad experience at work, sexual harassment by a female colleague and sexual discrimination by the management in not preventing it. As part of my recovery I read up on the subject and was shocked at how many male victims there are. Prior to than my perception was male victims existed but were statistically insignificant.

Sexual harassment at work was bad enough but domestic abuse in the home I assume is much worse.

Does this help ?

PS not normally up at this time just my FiL is in A&E

I sincerely hope that works out as well as it possibly can.

I totally accept your experience with your female manager was abusive, I would venture all posters have met at least one.

But how can you possibly generalise from that one example when there are so many superb women co workers and managers in so many places of work?

Yes, obviously when I was a young women at work, I experienced sexual harassment, many posters have too, and yes, I assure you its much worse at home: the man you are on the most imitate terms with you has to be controlling, in everytway, and gaslights (when you dont believe your own reality any more.

How would you feel about a man from the same background as yourself abusing your daughter?

" Oh... it's becuase he's in the only group of men not getting help"

No, you'd want to go round and clock him one and report to the police.

For the white working class background is an excuse for which poor behaviours exclusive to that group ?

The key point I was trying to get across to you were :
1) Due to my background I can identify with the white working boys now being failed at school.

As I pointed out, every other group which is under performing gets initiatives to address their needs. I have heard people complaining about STL don't look like me but never don't sound like me.

2) I read up on the subject and was shocked at how many male victims there are. Prior to than my perception was male victims existed but were statistically insignificant.

I simply don't understand where you are getting your ideas about me from? Where have I ever said or implied I have anything against women in general or that I excuse bad behaviour by white working class boys.

All I said I have found some women who find anyone raising the extent of male victims as somehow a threat. They hold the view of domestic violence is a one way street and can only be view through the prism of VAWG. Often by quoting dubious statistic which grossly under report male victims.

Other women are very supportive, and most of the best articles on the subject were written by women.

The other point you are missing is as a women you will instinctively get empathy and support for almost every women if you say you are being harassed or abused. A man in the same situation possibly won't.

I must be very dense as I cannot understand the original post. Its just quoting two original posters?

The original post is from a conversation on another thread. It is just people trying to control what conversation happens on what threads.

JohnnyMo

The other point you are missing is as a women you will instinctively get empathy and support for almost every women if you say you are being harassed or abused. A man in the same situation possibly won't.

This is simply not true.
See any previous discussion on this site for example, where allegations from women and girls are so often dismissed as being exaggerated, untrue, or being made for financial gain.

As some of us will never forget, the personal is political

Good god yes. Try discussing Epstein and his victims, that's always a challenge.

JohnnyMo

The other point you are missing is as a women you will instinctively get empathy and support for almost every women if you say you are being harassed or abused. A man in the same situation possibly won't.

For goodness sake, instead of moaning about it, get on and start setting them up for men!

Or even better try discussing allegations against the 'good guys' Brendan Cox for example, see how much empathy you get then.

Johnny, the underlying message of your posts is that if women don’t agree with you we either fail to understand the reality or we are sticking together in female solidarity. The former is one of the reasons many women like spaces of our own - can you begin to imagine how tedious it is to have to argue with someone who refuses to accept that you are entitled to disagree?

The latter is simply untrue. As has been said, there are many people (men and women) who assume that victims of abuse have brought it on themselves, or are lying. That is how Weinstein, Epstein, Saville, Gadd, Harris and many more got away with it, and how others get away with it now. The same is true for victims of physical abuse.

Women may be more likely than men to rally round other women in need - maybe because they have seen what goes on in their own lives, maybe because they know it could happen to them. Women grow up knowing that we have to be on the alert against male violence. Plan routes home where there is good lighting and people around. Think about what you are wearing. Always have the taxi fare home in case you need to leave unaccompanied. Don’t be out late on your own. Ask Angela. Don’t be alone with a man who might ‘misconstrue’ doing so as agreeing to sex. It goes on and on.

That doesn’t mean that we don’t understand that there are men who suffer abuse too. It means that when we are helping other women we want to do it away from the men who have abused them, and have set up women-only spaces where that can happen. Even so, we are now having to fight to stop males saying they are women from accessing those spaces! It’s dystopian.

Workplace bullying is horrible and widespread. I was a union rep, and can attest to that. It is not confined to one sex or the other when it comes to victims, but I have never known it to include violence against the person. Bullying is taken very seriously regardless of who is doing it to whom, sometimes to the point where managers seek advice before following disciplinary proceedings to avoid accusations of bullying.

Can’t you just accept that all people matter to most of us, regardless of gender or race. You can’t bully people who don’t think like that as it it is their environment and education that shapes minds,

Allsorts

Can’t you just accept that all people matter to most of us, regardless of gender or race. You can’t bully people who don’t think like that as it it is their environment and education that shapes minds,

Well said.

Allsorts

Can’t you just accept that all people matter to most of us, regardless of gender or race. You can’t bully people who don’t think like that as it it is their environment and education that shapes minds,

True. Their education we can not change but if we change their environment we may be able to change their minds. So if their peers make it clear that sexism is not acceptable no matter which direction it is in then maybe just maybe it may change their minds. Or a, I being optimistic.

No Jackiest you are talking about our hopes, as women, for the future, and we are strong and making it happen too. 👏

My son loves intelligent women. He teaches them maths at uni. and supervises a very bright Chinese young woman for her PhD. He's a bit competitive with me 🤣 who knows the most.

He loves and respects his wife because of her stoic, intelligent loving nature. She's better at organising the whole shebang (natch) but he lovingly is the main carer for my very, very disabled granddaughter and more playful and imaginative at games with the other children. GS1 is a bit autistic, and they do guy stuff together - cook, run. Both boys and their weller sis are happy.

Don't we all just seek that crucial quality - Balance

After all these posts I still doubt colour of children causes underachievement. I still do believe these underachiever boys have parents who are uninvolved, disinterested, not tending to their children.

Norah

After all these posts I still doubt colour of children causes underachievement. I still do believe these underachiever boys have parents who are uninvolved, disinterested, not tending to their children.

I quite agree, but uninvolved disinterested parents are not distributed evenly across all sections of society and more of such parents are white and in the lower/lowest socio-economic groups in society, than among non-white parents in the same socio-economic groups.

Agreed, M0nica, and if colour were relevant then white boys from all socio-economic groups would underachieve, which is not the case.

Another one agreeing with MOnica. Sadly, in my work life I met too many white British parents who argued it was ok for their kids to wag off (truant) because they’d learned all school could teach them by 13.

I gave some day work to three such boys earlier this year. I needed a few days help in the garden and someone saying he was a student posted on our local Facebook regulalry looking for work to help supplement his grant.

He came the first day and chatting he said he was 21, and wasn't actually at university but the local tech (that wasn't true either)

The next day he said he was busy but had a couple of friends who would help me, which was fine, but when they appeared they seemed very young. On the second day I engaged them casually in conversation and asked their ages and when they said 16/17, I asked why they where not still in education. They both said they had dropped out at 14. The shame was that they were bright lively boys and worked well. I would have recommended them, if someone had asked.

Anyway they were due to come the next day to finish the work - but never turned up, and stopped answering any messages.

It was clear they were getting by on the odd day's work, cash in hand. They lived at home and sometimes worked with their fathers, on building sites, so their parents were clearly complicit.

It just seemed such a shame and waste of two lively boys, and they really were boys than young men.

Almost as if the issue is poverty/class.

Galaxy

Almost as if the issue is poverty/class.

No, poverty and the communities poor people live in.