Underachievement of white boys

I'd just like to take this up, JohnnyMo, and not as adversarial, but becuase you are sadly out of date on this one:

A man asking for help is more likely to face ridicule than get any useful support

Dear JohnnyMo: no, no, no.

I have both worked in, have qualifications in, I am a qualified Psychotherapist and got help from, the Mental Health and SSD sectors: I'm been acquainted with men and women at the acute end, in a MH ward, in drop in centres, and so on.

And obviously have actually met both the men who asked for and accepted help, and those who resisted it because they were brought up "strong men don't cry".

Titbits:

......The posters funded and put up by the Samaritans addressed specifically to men (ie, image of trouble man) "its good to talk" - its the tip of the iceberg

Have a look at this reference:

menwhotalk.org/campaigns/

......The widespread knowledge that far more men up to the age of (I think its 16 to 40) are far more likely to commit suicide and often violently so and that any man or woman in any healing profession or have family experiences will know this.

Nowadays, any man going to any caring agency asking for help will not be told, "man up".

Examples from my own experiences:

Setting - 2006 - a Mental Health Ward. this working class man happened to be of Afro-Carribean origin (his parents) but it could have been any man.
He told me about going to the pub and some men would do that finger to the head gesture meaning "crazy". Less likely to happen now, I think

Setting - MH drop in centre, 2009-11 - two lovely men, both told me they cried because they couldn't manage to work, the pressures on what they "ought to be" so strong. both had overcome this by....guess what.....talking and acceptance. Knowing they could do good but it didn't have to be a paid job.

Taking my own Ex to the Doctor on manic episode before the final crushing one when he was abusive and wouldn't admit "need* DID talk to me at length and to Doctors and MH nurses

I could give many more examples JohnnyMo and would if you really want in a PM. I'd like you to feel that those who feel like you, that the climate you live in of "men have to be men" is not the case, they

Do not "have" to be that way

It's all to do with a family culture and depends on what sort of family you end up in, whatever the culture. It's all to do with pride and for many men what a relief it is to open up at long last what is so oppressive to them.

BTW, many men find its easier to open up to a women, but not always at all: I'm thinking of those "mentors" who set up boxing clubs or similar and act as fatherly figures.

And referring to the post you are answering too.

🤔

All I can say Wyllow3, well before professionals get involved a man will seek help from friends. Also I had a bad experience with both Occupational Health and HR in this respect.

As a women if you turned to any women would sympathise, that is not the case for men.

You would not expect questions like "Can you see it from his view point" "Try to stop annoying him" "He is just being himself, accept it"

As I said I published my experiences twice on social media once clearly as a man and one gender neutral. The difference in response was very significant even though the narrative were identical.

My experiences were just over 5 years ago, unless you are saying there has been a radical shift in the last 5 years our experiences differ.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

We do know her better than you, and her wealth of experience.
Perhaps it might be useful to follow the strategies used by women, we fundraised, organised and staffed domestic violence services ( and are currently having to rebuild those services but that's another story) it might be useful to look at how women did that in order to facilitate making those services for men.

those who respond to any mention of male victim with women are always the victim type response

This is the second time JohnnyMo has made assumptions about me, me motivations, my belief systems. I’ll respond in kind. My impression is that you are a rather angry, dissatisfied man who believes he knows so much more than the women he’s mansplaining to.

Thanks Galaxy, I was about to make similar comments. In the late seventies, women in my town set up support for women being subject to Domestic abuse. We raised funds to open the first women’s refuge. We persuaded the Council Housing Department to help.

Some years ago, a local man set up a group for men overcoming violence. He’d been an abusive partner, got help and moved on.

It’s also u true to say services aren’t responsive to the needs of male victims (any more than they sometimes are to women

Doodledog

Allira

I've got lost somewhere - what is the PP?

I don’t know what you mean

A previous poster?

This, Doodledog:

MadameFeuveral asked
Why is the PP a nasty piece of work?

which I didn't understand - what or who is the PP?

PP, pupil premium? an additional amount of money paid to a school in respect of a child who is on free school meals, it also includes children who have a parent in the military. The money does not have to be spent on the actual child but every state school has to write a report which explicitly describes how the money is being spent to improve the outcomes of disadvantaged children. It has replaced most of the additional funding for particular types of children eg those for whom English is a second language etc.

But it would be an odd thing to say pupil premium is a nasty piece of work, even if you disagreed with it.

Thanks foxie48 but that doesn't seem to what PP is in this instance.

Never mind, it's a confusing thread altogether!! I don't know who is talking to whom. 🙂

The PP refers back to Primrose. She made a post at 19.51 that was disliked by the other poster who is now presumably banned, (but who of course, may well appear again later with a new name!)

Iam64

Thanks Galaxy, I was about to make similar comments. In the late seventies, women in my town set up support for women being subject to Domestic abuse. We raised funds to open the first women’s refuge. We persuaded the Council Housing Department to help.

Some years ago, a local man set up a group for men overcoming violence. He’d been an abusive partner, got help and moved on.

It’s also u true to say services aren’t responsive to the needs of male victims (any more than they sometimes are to women

To Iam64 You did respond very aggressively to my mention of male victim Domestic abuse, including mis quoting me.

You also quoted some statistic which massively under represented the problem. I did ask you for the source of those statistic which you have not provided.

As I said I have I have discussed domestic violence elsewhere on SM and find some women who aggressively defend the view that Domestic Violence can only be viewed by the prism of VAWG.

Nothing you have said since has changed my initial opinion.

I’m surprised you are accusing me of being aggressive.

The figures you ask the source of - women’s aid.

Refuge gives facts and statistics 93% of defendants in domestic abuse cases, 84% of victims are female.

Of course men may be reluctant to report. So are women. They fear their children will be removed if they expose the extent of abuse they’re being subjected to.

Galaxy Tue 26-Aug-25 12:21:25
At the moment all I am trying to do is raise the profile so a man being abused does feel alone and isolated. Given the coverage in MSM most people assume male victim is far rarer than it really is, maybe 1 in 30 not 1 in 3.

Once the problem is discussed more than services will follow (I hope).

Thing have improved in the last few year but it is still a long way behind the provision for women. Recently saw a poster for Swindon Women Aid (?) which had a foot note explicitly stating we also help men suffering domestic abuse.

we fundraised, organised and staffed domestic violence services I don't know it that was you personally or just women in general. But if you want to help ALL victims of domestic abuse why differentiate ?

Finally fund raising for male charities is harder. Not sure why but look at the difference between Brest Cancer and Prostate Cancer also see
biggive.org/women-girls-match-fund/ but there isn't an equivalent week for men

The figures you ask the source of - women’s aid. guessed as much hardly unbiased

Refuge gives facts and statistics 93% of defendants in domestic abuse cases, 84% of victims are female. Given that 1 in 3 victims are men you see much needs to be done to treat all victims equally.

I differentiate, my focus is women, it is why I am part of campaigns for services to remain single sex. It us absolutely fine for you to focus on the needs of men.

JohnnyMo

All I can say Wyllow3, well before professionals get involved a man will seek help from friends. Also I had a bad experience with both Occupational Health and HR in this respect.

As a women if you turned to any women would sympathise, that is not the case for men.

You would not expect questions like "Can you see it from his view point" "Try to stop annoying him" "He is just being himself, accept it"

As I said I published my experiences twice on social media once clearly as a man and one gender neutral. The difference in response was very significant even though the narrative were identical.

My experiences were just over 5 years ago, unless you are saying there has been a radical shift in the last 5 years our experiences differ.

I would say yes, both on new initiatives to give men access to both formal and informal help:

has not just started in the last 5 years but is accelerating

Why?

A problem the government is trying to work on right now is

the large number of young men claiming PIP

(women too, but we are discussing men)

Those men are not only asking for help. The forms cover mental health needs as seriously as other disabilities:

but measures are of course in discussion as to Mental Health and Practical formal or informal support.

Just was walked out of Sainsbugs, I saw this poster: it’s all over the place. I can also assure you with no shadow of doubt that people working in the MH, Social Work, and the best sort of teachers, recognise the special needs of young white men.

If you can’t accept what I say to be a reflection of what is now happening,

I’d gently ask, are you just being deliberately perverse?

Or is someone you know, perhaps a younger man or one who has special needs and troubled

Is either refusing to admit there is help as what is inside feels ‘all too much’?

Or simply needs someone to direct them?

As a mature male who’s seen a lot of life, you could be that figure?

Wyllow3 -- Are we discussing mental health or domestic violence?

JohnnyMo

your answer:

Inseparable.

By saying Mental Health I am using the terms in the broadest sense, that is, we all have different emotional and mental wellbeing or troubled states of mind.

(Specifically designated conditions are a subject aside and clearly not here)

I have answered this already.

The clue was in my description of the young men claiming PIP in my last post.
but emotional and mental degrees of well being which apply to everyone - you, me, other posters, our families…here and at large.

My key answering point being.

I described PIP claimants and the breadth of physical and emotional states causing such distress.

The same wide criteria can ce applied to both men and women when we look at those who are abusing or are abused. Clearly there is an emotional or mental problem.

Could you give some information about yourself as regards this, as questioning others but posters not knowing where you stand is limiting good responses?

Allira

Doodledog

Allira

I've got lost somewhere - what is the PP?

I don’t know what you mean

A previous poster?

This, Doodledog:

MadameFeuveral asked
Why is the PP a nasty piece of work?

which I didn't understand - what or who is the PP?

Ah, I see. This thread is a bit confusing, but I see what you mean.

JohnnyMo

Message deleted by GNHQ

Iam will be very well aware of all kinds of DV, and is most unlikely to generalise at all, never mind say 'women are always the victim'.

Even if someone did feel that aspects of male-victim DV detract from the work done by women who have supported one another to prevent DV against women (eg men wanting to use women's refuges) I can't see how it could be seen as misogyny.

Do you have stats that show one in three DV victims is male, please? I do feel that this sounds rather high, and am more familiar with the Refuge figures, but even if you are right, two thirds are women, which is a large majority. Either way, it is important that any and all victims are treated sensitively and that perpetrators are identified and prevented from doing it again. FWIW, I am not at all disputing that male victims exist - I personally know two young men who have suffered at the hands of partners.

Nevertheless, a lot of the provision for women has, as has been pointed out, been provided by women, so of course there is more of a focus on female victims. What would you expect?

After I posted last, JohnnyMo here is exactly what happened.

I was posting on my mobile in a Costa. (and doing bits and bobs to get a break before going home to a rather chaotic house)

A man working on his computer next to me. - an expensive Apple - was wandering about talking to others, particularly the (Bame) business partner.

Anyway, I had been there for some time, and was ready to go, and was aware of this computer there unattended and not even being kept an eye on. So I went over and told him, and he was very friendly and said the Costa was like his 'home office".

Inevitably after popping to the loo I was curious, so I went over to ask what their business was.

*Posters, it was bang on topic here. He and the bloke with him were working together to help men who had gone through a breakdown trying to "Be a Man" and failing".

Because he had, and ended up desperate at the GP at last, driven to tell all

Their plans are techie based, all good stuff for its reach, by using Algorithms to offer help where its needed.

I said that was great but of course he knew 1 2 1 was important as an end result.

He pointed out two men sitting outside the Costa...this is the absolute truth

See those two

"The man on the right" (quite "male" - big build etc)

is going through a very bad time and is being helped by the other one

He agreed that Covid had a lot to do with it

I said that it was harder for men in some ways, because women tend to more naturally reach out for "natters".

I was interested enough so offered to help, if they wanted?.

We've swapped contacts, so that I can carry on being involved in this spread of "men being there for men" with that brief. Again, me bearing in mind, its not just my experience, but my experience as a woman.

I also raised Domestic Violence and men and again, as in my post above, it is part of the mix

After all, that is part of my lived expereince

And its part of my healing not to be intimidated by interaction with men anymore (I said that) and to check out that they were men not intimidated by intelligence and being articulate (who was a reason I was gaslighted by my ex).

Watch this space - I just see, all around me, that men can change, that there are current forces speeding the process, and its better and happier for men and women from all cultures to change the boundaries and learn from each other not set each other up to lay blame.

Not that blame should not be laid, my goodness, it has to be big time, as without doing this there will be change

correct last sentence

Not that blame should not be laid, my goodness, it has to be big time, as without doing this there will not be change