An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

The OP stated quite clearly she was in two minds about the banning of the burqa and sited evidence in support of both sides. She then asked, 'what do you think?'

That to me is not a racist meme but a balanced introduction to an issue of concern.

Strange world we live in: in regard to the O/P and "does it make men think of women being more sexually available etc"

Go into many town or city centres on a weekend night and see women wearing next to nothing: its their choice: I don't have a problem with it: but as women and legally in the UK we do not assume that gives men the right to attack or abuse

Some very strange thinking in regards to that aspect of the O/P and it is indeed unquestionably a racist meme to me at least.

It is about approval it is about values.

Which principle is more important,
making people wear what WE approve of,
or allowing them to wear what THEY wish to wear?

Uigur women have been imprisoned for trying to wear their traditional costume.
Any sort of coercion is wrong.

Yes the same arguments are used about all sorts of oppression of women. If people are calling you names then usually it is the right sort of feminism. I personally can't keep up with the number of hate crimes I have been responsible for.
Do people actually think these words have any power any more

Here is a 2025 report of a Muslim Womens conference, a bang up to date reflection of the move earlier this year to ban the burka

“Syeda Ahmad also further raised concerns over how these renewed calls for a ban on face-covering clothes will impact upon Muslim women and girls.

If you’re actually concerned about Muslim women and how we might be feeling, one of the worst things you can do is project your own prejudices and assumptions onto us she said.
“We’ve seen in other European countries that have introduced things like hijab bans or burka bans – we know from research that only serves to alienate Muslim women.

nation.cymru/news/uk-muslim-women-concerned-over-negative-attitudes-toward-hijab/

I do accept - and they accept - that the choice to never remove it will mean limitations on civic lives. but we cannot assume this to be the case (ie never remove it)

but its their choice

Oreo

Catholic nuns and Orthodox Jewish women don’t have their faces completely obscured as in burqa wearing so there’s no comparison.

I would argue with most of what *Wyllow3 has said.

To expand on what Oreo has said. These days most catholic nuns do not wear any kind of head covering, and have not for most of the last 50 yeas, when they do, it usually does not even cover their hair. It is more of a short 'uniform' head covering whose purpose is to reveals their status, much as nurses used to wear caps.

To me, for any group of people to cover themselves up in public so that their face cannot be seen, are choosing to reject all the rights that group have as part of the civic and social life of the country.

For so many things we need to see a face and recognise it - driving licences, passports, voting.

And as I said before, what about respect for the traditions of this country, or indeed western Europe, a tradition that venerates the head, most heroes are shown bareheaded, the wind blowing through their hair. For Europe face covering is utilitarian and reserved for physical protection from injury.

I would not ban the burqa, but I would expect that those who chose to wear it to accept the limitations it will impose on their civic lives.

I dont believe integration excludes expressions of difference, a multicultural society is one where we live together but have different ways of expressing ourselves.

It has always struck me that a good thing about UK society actually appreciates the "Eccentric" and "Unusual" when it comes to many life choices.

British eccentricity is a sort of national penchant for non-conformity, quirkiness, and individualism, visible in everything from eccentric historical figures to interior design and social and religious customs, with a good dose, at best, of a sense of humour about it.

I seem to have inadvertently entered an echo chamber.

Burqa wearing isn’t a religious requirement either it’s purely a cultural thing.The taliban love women to wear them.

Catholic nuns and Orthodox Jewish women don’t have their faces completely obscured as in burqa wearing so there’s no comparison.

3,000 to 5,000? !
I didn’t realise it was so many.
They will never integrate in our society by wearing a full face veil.
Why on earth would women actually choose such stricture for themselves? Because they were used to it in the country they came from and/or the men in the family want them to.
That’s up to 5,000 women not taking part in wider society in the UK.
And no, it most definitely isn’t racist to want women to fully take part in all our country has to offer them, so stop all the racist accusations which are sheer nonsense.

I want to clarify why I consider some aspects of this discussion as racist. I am quoting here, because it’s expressed far better than I can say, but contains the thoughts I’ve been having

Summary:
Arguments that UK discussions on wearing the burka are racist or Islamophobic centre on the idea that the focus on this specific garment is disproportionate, perpetuates negative stereotypes about Muslim women, and contributes to a climate of fear and discrimination

Disproportionate Focus Only a tiny percentage of Muslim women in the UK wear the full face veil (an estimated 3,000-5,000 women, or less than 1% of the female Muslim population), yet the topic receives extensive political and media attention. Critics argue this focus is designed to stoke cultural divisions rather than address a widespread social issue.

Stereotyping and Othering The debate often frames the burka as an image of "otherness" and a refusal to integrate into "British values," which contributes to the homogenisation and demonisation of Muslims as a single, problematic group.

Ignoring Muslim Women's Voices Discussions frequently involve non-Muslim politicians and commentators debating the "liberation" of Muslim women, while the voices of the women who actually wear the niqab or burka (often by choice, for reasons of modesty, privacy, or personal faith) are sidelined or ignored.

Fueling Hate Crime High-profile, negative comments by public figures (such as former Prime Minister Boris Johnson's comparison of wearers to "letterboxes" or "bank robbers") have been linked to significant spikes in real-world Islamophobic incidents, including verbal and physical abuse, disproportionately targeting visibly Muslim women.

Paternalism and Control Opponents of a ban argue that attempts to force women not to wear the burka are a form of paternalistic control, paradoxically limiting the freedom of choice they claim to champion and potentially confining women to their homes if they do not wish to remove their coverings in public.

Inconsistency in Criticism Critics note an inconsistency in the focus on the burka compared to other religious garments, such as a nun's habit or an Orthodox Jewish woman's attire, suggesting the issue is specifically with Muslims rather than face coverings in general

We’ve just had one actual Muslim women’s voice, and that was a on page one: here is another: its old, but relevant

www.stylist.co.uk/speak-up/muslim-woman-women-burqa-burka-boris-johnson-xenophobia-islam-islamophobia-debate-mariam-khan-speak-up/221767

Here is a longer article, but if you speed read through, really does cover these points.

irep.ntu.ac.uk/id/eprint/35508/1/13032_Zempi.pdf

Galaxy

No protests is quite unlike the French

Thanks Galaxy, this made me smile. A relief after catching up on this thread.

No protests is quite unlike the French

hollysteers

France has had legislation against the wearing of face coverings and the burqa in public places since 2011 and I’m with them on that.

Me too.
Sensible France.

No protests just compliance.

Any Muslim woman with ‘a top notch career’ wouldn’t be wearing a burqa in the UK, or probably anywhere else.
The women who go out in a burqa are required to do that by their husbands, or Fathers or brothers as it’s the done thing wherever they came from.
We’re discussing the burqa not Muslim women who wear a headscarf or Western dress.

starnded

*It’s very hard for Muslim women to challenge the status quo*

Extraordinary, you can speak for all females of this faith. Every single, solitary one of them.

Amazing knowledge.

starned You are wrong. Oreo did not say that all muslim women, simply 'muslim women' a generalisation that because it lacks the all important all implicitly assumes that there will be variation within the group, but not much.

It's an odd comment and not relevant because it is not to do with race.

It's not a requirement of a religion either, it is cultural.

Oreo

Wyllow3

I'm about to start as a volunteer for women locally who have been abused. leading a group who want to do some art or some yoga. (yes, for real, it was a decision based on the marriage not the recent attack)

I shall not and never would start asking anyone who arrives in a burka to remove there face covering

Just to please some racist GN's, becuase thats what it is, imo:

We've read posts above on page 1 about what Muslim women have themselves to say and how some have made a choice:

obviously if its done under male pressure its abuse here or abroad I would fight it all the way:

but banning it is counter productive in terms of change, gradual being able to "let it go" is the way forward and

not accepting a minority of womens choices in our supposedly tolerant UK goes against everything I believe in.

What a very rude comment?
Calling GNers racist just because they would like to see Muslim women liberated from a really restrictive medieval form of dress!

Correct Oreo. It is a very rude and nasty comment.

Calling other GNers racist (or anybody else actually) is what the Left do when they know they are losing the argument. It is thrown around so much now that it’s meaningless and most people realise this and stop doing it.

starnded

*It’s very hard for Muslim women to challenge the status quo*

Extraordinary, you can speak for all females of this faith. Every single, solitary one of them.

Amazing knowledge.

I agree.
Many Muslim women in the UK today have to notch careers and are by no means subservient to anyone, they constantly challenge the status quo by proving that Muslim women can be independent and successful. Am not sure if anyone actually watches PMQs but if they do they will see a sizeable number of MPs in the HoC and at least one Minister who are Muslim women.

It’s very hard for Muslim women to challenge the status quo

Extraordinary, you can speak for all females of this faith. Every single, solitary one of them.

Amazing knowledge.

Sago I think that you are absolutely correct that religions that dictate " cover-up" effectively divide women into "good" and "bad" women , the latter being sexually available when the " covered" women are available only within the strict sexual mores of their own cultures.
A regrettable feature of these practices but unfortunately IMO an accurate one.

Maremia

On the other hand, it wouldn't be liberating for women to be made to stay at home because rules forbid them to go out 'covered'.
It's a very delicate balance.

Which I've interpreted as there is a gap there. That gap includes:
- widespread/very widespread information on how women can get a divorce if need be (including if it's not our normal legal type of marriage)

- help to escape a man who is trying to trap them within his idea of a marriage (admits I've no idea myself just how many Womens Refuges we've got in the country currently)

- confidence-building lessons in women young enough to still be at school - (which is something that would be useful to all women in fact) on their rights etc within relationships.

I guess there's always the possibility that a "trapped" woman would find "her husband trapping her in her own home" to be the final thing she needed to break free from him and I think we'd all understand just why she'd left him if he tried to do that to her.