An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

My feeling is that this is really all about power - who has it and who does not.

Just as an example - and there are many - when the British invaded India, subjugating the Indian people and stealing their natural resources, I don't think the British women or men changed their manner of dress. They continued to wear the sort of clothes they had worn in the UK and retain British customs. They did it because they had the
power to do it. In a similar way, African people were forced to wear European clothing and follow the Christian religion.

Some British people are very annoyed when these examples are given, saying "why are we dwelling on that - it was such a long time ago". Actually, in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't such a long time ago, and it should give British people pause for thought - but, of course, it won't.

I am a little confused about this huge concern for muslim women and their rights. Of course, any acts of violence or coercion are absolutely wrong - but at the moment there is said to be an "explosion" of violence against women and girls in this country and, it appears, little recourse to the justice system. And there have been so many cases of rape, sexual assault and coercive control carried out by male police officers that I feel more attention should be paid to that.

M0nica

Maremia

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

We are free to disagree with other peoples profoundly felt beliefs.

Especially in our own society.

Where did ideas about integration go? When? Why?

I can only echo Monica's sentiments, the burka in particular has always come across as a barrier reducing to whoever the wearer may be as a non person, just some disembodied tent like beings moving about. In that respect sometimes they remind me of my childlike pondering about daleks many years ago when Dr Who had just been launched, insomuch was there a person underneath the encasement or is it some disembodied voice? Whilst many EU countries are beginning to put legislation in place against the wearing of the garment, at times I feel that is a draconian measure after all we cannot know whether the wearer has been forced to do so or not. Some say they haven't, but I think if that's the case they should have an eye to the sisterhood, those who don't have the choice, and not wear it. The more it's seen the more it becomes an ingrained symbol of oppression and it normalises submission. Look at the extreme version that the Afghan women have to wear, no peripheral vision, so dangerous as well, but for them just one of the many perils they have to navigate on a day to day basis. Then there are the patriarchal hang ups about women's hair that has been a diktat through so many cultures and religions. The woman's hair, it must be covered at all times, what is it with those men, is it because there is a likelihood they may lose theirs,? so some subliminal hair envy going on. Or simply females with uncovered hair are temptresses. That says a whole lot more about them imo. the onus of their temptations must be shifted to the woman, a woman's place will always be in the wrong. I remember taking my 3 year gd, as she was then, to see a children's production of the Gruffalo at a local theatre and in filed a class of tiny girls all with their heads bound in scarves, not one more than aged 5, not much more than tots Personally I don't have any problem with head scarves, except where women, or girls are forced to wear them as in Iran, where so many women in that country would love not to have to cover their heads, remember the 16 year old girl beaten senseless, later to die, her crime her scarf had slipped down the back of her head.

Going back to the total immersion of the body in the burka. It's such an all encompassing garment,that in itself could be problematic in establishing identity. I remember the murderer of WPC Sharon Beshenivsky a few years ago, he was able to flee the country wearing one, no one seem to question his size 11s poking out . He was able to evade justice for a couple of years I believe.

Maremia

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

We are free to disagree with other peoples profoundly felt beliefs.

It is being discussed at the regular let women speak events. They were at the forefront of challenging the men in women's spaces issue.

I would have to step outside my values which I won't do.
In many faiths homosexuality is a sin, I won't step out of my values about that either.

Now that is interesting Galaxy.
How are they approaching the issue?

Galaxy, I would not wear a burka either.
Have frequently said on this Tread, I am against coercion.
Coercion to wear a burka.
Coercion to stop wearing one.

Personally, and it's just an opinion, because I don't know any of these women, but I think their faith has a lot to do with it.
Difficult for some of us to understand, in our own increasingly secular society. That's why, to understand them, you gave to step outside of your own preconceptions.
Not easy to do this.

There is a burgeoning feminist movement tackling the issue which I am watching with interest.

That’s one of significant points in this discussion Maremia. Google confirms what I’ve been told by a limited, number of young women.
I wonder how much of their ‘choice’ influenced by the kind of sexual harassment most of us experience, how much by solidarity with peers (Greenham wimin anyone) and how much by faith

I view it as a symbol of misogyny.
Lots of women support all sorts of things that are steeped in misogyny.

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

Maremia

So few women in the UK wearing a burja, and all living rent free in so many GN minds.

That is because we are an open and free society where one of the assumptions that is made that people 's faces are not covered. Motorcyclists have to remove their helmets, in most situations where they are not on a moving bike

The whole genre of Gothic novels was based on the evil and mysteriousness of veiled and hooded people, whether monks, nuns, or assassins. Think of the young man with his hoody pulled round his face. Most people, ujustly treat them as suspect because they cannot see their faces.

It doesn't matter how many or how few people are wearing these garments, they cross too many boundaries that we have and that needs to be taken into account.

Of course it can.

Maremia

So few women in the UK wearing a burja, and all living rent free in so many GN minds.

Never think of it unless it's mentioned on Gransnet.

My mind is fully occupied with many other things although it can expand!

Opposing the burka? I’m not a fan of burkas, niqab, or other head covering. Some of the orthodox Jewish community expect the women to cover their heads, or cover their hair with a wig.
It’s all about the view of women as dangerous sex sirens. Show their hair, their legs, bare arms or good forbid a bit of cleavage and the poor men won’t be able to contain themselves

The thing is though, I’m white British so although I’m familiar with casual misogyny and oppression of women in my culture, I’ve never lived in an orthodoxy that expects me to stay inside, silent like women in Afghanistan or to cover myself in they ways described.

I agree with your broad points MOnics but your comparison with a parrot in a cage made me cringe. The women in the burka or the niqab are living their lives the best way they can p, as are we,

Nope not living rent free, just part of a feminist discussion that happens everywhere, probably to a less extent on GN than elsewhere.

So few women in the UK wearing a burja, and all living rent free in so many GN minds.

Well said Monica. Cover on a parrot cage made me laugh. 🤣

Galaxy

How many women have you sat with whose husbands forced them to wear gloves? In the modern day I mean.
I view it as a symbol of misogyny, as I repeatedly say accusing me of racism, or stereotypical thinking doesn't impact me. I have heard it all before.

As far as I am concerned a niqab and burqa are physically and psycholgically the same thing. They cover women over with a cloth, like putting a cover on a a parrot cage. they dehumanise her and are thee to make her anon-person.

i cannot think of a single situation where having one person covered by a shroud makes them an immediate person of attention and leadership within a group. No one can see them, nor hear them properly, we cannot read their body language.

Galxy is right, opposing the burqa has nthing to do with racism nor, stereotypical thought. I am with her all the way.

How many women have you sat with whose husbands forced them to wear gloves? In the modern day I mean.
I view it as a symbol of misogyny, as I repeatedly say accusing me of racism, or stereotypical thinking doesn't impact me. I have heard it all before.

Galaxy

Yes I remember the oppression linked with headscarves.

Your argument is reductionist as well as stereotypical. Oppression happens everywhere.

Yes I remember the oppression linked with headscarves.

Iam64

Living in an area where seeing one burka in 12 years, doesn’t qualify a person as an expert it what is ‘normal western clothing ‘

As 0.001% = less than a 1000 women in total, most of us will never see a burka in our daily lives. In fact I have never seen anyone in the U.K. wearing one.

I have seen ladies in full totally black covering except her eyes - niqab and abaya including gloves in posh shops in London, but I suspect they were tourists from Saudi.

99.9% of Muslims women I see - and that quite rarely - wear a simple headscarf.

It wasn’t long ago - well my mothers era, when a lady never left the house without a hat and gloves - different style of course, but my mother always wore a hat. The Queen was fond of headscarves.

Living in an area where seeing one burka in 12 years, doesn’t qualify a person as an expert it what is ‘normal western clothing ‘