An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

starnded

Any update on the link between FGM and wearing a loose outer garment please?

I often wear loose outer garments, I always have, especially in summer, what has that to do with anything?

Dreadful story in DM today about an 18 year old girl in Holland.

She was killed by her two brothers and her father (who then fled to Syria ) in what they call an honour killing because she refused to wear a veil. They bound and gagged her, drove her miles in the dark and dumped her in marshland.

This is why the burkha should be banned. Women should never be forced to wear veils, flowing gowns or anything else they choose not to.

I read that story too Primrose and thought "Not another one...how can they be doing things like that?" ....and yet I am struggling to recall if I've ever seen a man attacked and killed for anything he does!!!!! Nope - it seems to be just women who cop it if they have evil relatives....

It must be incredibly difficult for women who are born into that sort of family - but are normal themselves - to try and hide that fact and escape from the relatives before they get burka'd up/married off forcibly/etc.

Nobody can be bothered any more. An echo chamber.

Although I did enjoy the use of burqa as a verb.

*it must be incredibly difficult for women who are born into that sort of family - but are normal themselves ….. “

Where to start with this?….

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Are we a predominantly Christian country? Our history is Christian, our Courts influenced by Judaea Christian cultures and beliefs.
Church attendance continues to reduce. Evensong a rare event, whereas in the past we often had family service, followed by communion service and Evensong about 6 pm.

Members of our Muslim population is more likely to practice their faith than those who might put Christian on an official form.

The busiest Church in our town is Evangelical. It’s well supported by the African refugee community. Our village Church has moved from traditional to more evangelical. They’re finding growing congregation as a result. The children are active participants, lots of singing and clapping. Few trad hymns for oldies like me.

A couple of our beautiful old Churches have become Indian Restaurants.

The busiest church here by far is evangelical and back in my home city the church my best friend is going to has obviously turned evangelical in recent years (which will suit her fine - as that's what she is).

I can see the Welsh chapels where I am now are either down to a very sparse congregation or have shut - though I don't know whether they'd be busier (and imagine they would be) if the services were in English (rather than Welsh). As currently a lot of people who might like to go to them can't - because they wouldnt understand the service. Hence that's part of why the evangelical church here is very busy by the look of it.

Them's the choices here - Church of England (aka "Church in Wales"), a couple of poorly-attended chapels and that evangelical church and that's all religious basis covered here. Add in loads of New Age spiritual type things scattered around the area here.

Happylady2025

The burqa is not part of western culture and should not be allowed in this country. Whilst I am tolerant of other religions to a certain extent we are predominantly a christian country being taken over by Islam

Absolutely agree. We need to be careful although I doubt anything will be done as we are always told what a tolerant and inclusive society we are.

We are a tolerant and inclusive society. Can yiu help me understand by what you mean by “we need to be careful “?
As seen on this thread, the majority are uneasy, or definitely opposed, to the wearing of the burka, I posted earlier that the burka and other forms of traditional dress are much more often worn in my town than thirty years ago. It’s possible my Muslim neighbours of Pakistani heritage were more ancpxiiud about racist comments than they are now,

? "ancpxiiud" ??

I don't understand why a woman herself would stand there and argue the toss if told to take off the headgear/show her face before going in anywhere - but yep...cue for just watched a video of a blazing row by 2 women in them in one of the other European countries (ie one of the ones that has banned the burka so far) and the man was asking perfectly politely and telling them they couldnt come in wearing them. I didn't really understand the blazing row - as I would have told them they werent allowed to wear them, waited for them to take them off and, if that didnt happen, then I'd have just walked away and said nothing further unless I saw they'd changed their minds and taken them off - in which case "They've followed our rules - so let them in".

I don't understand why they would move to one of our Western countries and insist on doing something so against our ways and that means we don't have the full information we need to evaluate them (ie being able to read their faces). I'd also ask (okay that British "ask" - by which we mean "tell") anyone hiding their face in any other way to stop doing so - be it a balaclava, a motorcycle helmet, whatever else or an elegant turn of last century face veil. All would receive the same treatment.

I think women should wear what they want to wear - whether it be a burqa or something much more revealing.

I think continual criticism of ethnic dress will actually have the reverse effect. People will naturally feel targeted and less inclined to mingle with people outside their own culture, or to question or adapt any of their practices.

I tend to agree with Franbern that, in my experience of living in London, it is often the younger women who have reverted to wearing the burqa. It is a type of rebellion against the demonisation of their culture. When I see them chatting happily together on the tube, I don't get the impression that they are docile, oppressed individuals.

Cariad you say "Basically, I had a good figure and I knew it (had to compensate for the face not being so great....). So it was tight jeans, lowish v necklines. Not "tart" clothes - but certainly ones where my figure was pretty visible.

I guess the only time I'd go back into clothes like that now - at my age - would be if someone else tried to tell me what clothes I couldnt wear. In which case - you better believe I will be back out there in tight jeans, high hemlines, v neck and bit clingy tops deliberately to make my point "

My body /my choice/the norm - shut up"."

so why are you so against Muslim Women that choose to wear a Burka? You made no sense.

I belong to interfaith groups, one of which is women only where we get to discuss theses matters only.

This how we get to engage with people, and try to understand each other, not pontificate on a high from a white brit perspective. On the whole is "We wouldn't choose to wear one, but women have the right to choose".

It is being discussed from a feminist perspective in many places and they of course would have a broader analysis than that.

The feminist perspective is relevant when considering the burka imo. So are the increasing anti Muslim views being expressed by many of white British heritage.

I agree with Eloethan’s observation that it’s younger women embracing the burka as a sign of solidarity with their faith. Same goes for the head scarves. We see many students with the same dress as non Muslim students but wearing a head covering.

My earlier spaghetti word should have read that my Muslim Pakistani neighbours were less likely to wear traditional dress than the are now because they were more anxious about racism than they are now

Iam64

*it must be incredibly difficult for women who are born into that sort of family - but are normal themselves ….. “

Where to start with this?….

I took it as the woman in question wanted to integrate into British society by not wanting to wear an outdated form of dress from an Asian country and wasn’t of the same mindset of her cruel murderous family.

Iam64

We are a tolerant and inclusive society. Can yiu help me understand by what you mean by “we need to be careful “?
As seen on this thread, the majority are uneasy, or definitely opposed, to the wearing of the burka, I posted earlier that the burka and other forms of traditional dress are much more often worn in my town than thirty years ago. It’s possible my Muslim neighbours of Pakistani heritage were more ancpxiiud about racist comments than they are now,

Well they’re going about it the wrong way then, as there will be more not less racist comments if they breeze around town in a burqa.

Eloethan

I think women should wear what they want to wear - whether it be a burqa or something much more revealing.

I think continual criticism of ethnic dress will actually have the reverse effect. People will naturally feel targeted and less inclined to mingle with people outside their own culture, or to question or adapt any of their practices.

I tend to agree with Franbern that, in my experience of living in London, it is often the younger women who have reverted to wearing the burqa. It is a type of rebellion against the demonisation of their culture. When I see them chatting happily together on the tube, I don't get the impression that they are docile, oppressed individuals.

I don’t agree at all ( tho that’s fine)
Would we feel happy if men wore anything they wanted when out and about? Hamas style face coverings?

Iam64

We are a tolerant and inclusive society. Can yiu help me understand by what you mean by “we need to be careful “?
As seen on this thread, the majority are uneasy, or definitely opposed, to the wearing of the burka, I posted earlier that the burka and other forms of traditional dress are much more often worn in my town than thirty years ago. It’s possible my Muslim neighbours of Pakistani heritage were more ancpxiiud about racist comments than they are now,

A country can be too tolerant and inclusive and end up being a doormat for other cultures to walk all over.
France has the right idea by banning face coverings which also has the effect of preventing male head of households there from the subjugation of women in those houses.

The burqa is, quite simply, a visible symbol of the oppression of women.
I wish the solution were as easy as banning it.

It would be a good start Quercus

Quercus

The burqa is, quite simply, a visible symbol of the oppression of women.
I wish the solution were as easy as banning it.

Other countries find it easy enough.

Interestingly the academic research on racism, indicates that it has never gone away, but has simply changed its shape over the past recent decade or so. The rhetoric has changed from that based on colour to that based on immigration status and culture.

“ Various forms of racism persist. Today, cultural racism is the most widespread and politically consequential kind. Derogatory and stereotyped views on cultural differences and national identity are now an everyday feature of public discourse, especially in debates over immigration”

“ Similarly, the notion that racism was already dealt with “decades ago”, in Starmer’s words, ignores the fact that racism never went away. It also downplays the extent to which the harm of past racism lives on in the present in structural issues like wealth and income gaps, uneven access to work or housing, unequal health outcomes, and police profiling.

To tackle racism, a widening of focus is needed. Our conception of racism cannot be restricted to instances of individual prejudice but must also include these structural effects.

At the structural level, racism causes certain individuals or communities to be more vulnerable to violence, exclusion, marginalisation, poverty, and other harmful outcomes on the basis of their membership of a particular racial, cultural, or religious group. Rhetoric that intensifies this vulnerability feeds racism, even when it is not expressed in the language of “race” or when there is no prejudicial intent.

So long as these structural factors are not taken into consideration, more subtle forms of racism will continue to hide in plain sight and exert a corrosive influence on the health and wellbeing of those it targets”

It is alive and well on GN

Oh I forgot to reference.

Extract from paper by Lars Cornelissen MMU.