Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

Rosie51

Of course to allow one 'special man' into the female changing room but to keep all the other males out is indirect discrimination against the other men, since they are all exactly the same sex.

Oh that’s a bit far.

I know many of you on here “don’t believe” in trans people, but there are genuinely people out there who firmly believe that they are born into the wrong genders body. I know one, a female to male and I’d defy anyone who didn’t know he wasn’t born male. He, of course, has to use male loos etc and has chosen only to have surgery on his bosons, not “down below”.

I don’t pretend to understand it all, but I do have enough respect for him and his wife to call then man and wife.

Galaxy

Lesbians are women.
This is a man.

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do,

TerriBull

I have a gut feeling, and maybe I'm wrong, that there would be some in the government who would have preferred the ruling to go the other way, they just don't come across as being very on board with it.

I dread to think if that had been the outcome, how all the areas we regard as safe places would be severely compromised.

Of course it may come across that way, Trans are on the list of protected characteristics, by law.

I’ll be honest, everyone has the right to be, and to feel safe, in their places of work and anywhere else.

I mean, EVERYONE.

Some things in this thread make me feel uncomfortable. I’m pleased the nurses have had their say and “won”.

But for me it feels like there are no winners.

Women have the right to get changed in single sex spaces - that is the law. If you let a biological man - even one who now claims to identify as a woman - into those spaces, then they are no longer single sex.

You really can’t be on the fence for any given subject,
And on this subject there’s only women’s views and men’s views and trans women are actually men.
I wouldn’t want to strip off in front of them and neither did this group of nurses.
They had no choice but to put up with it for years, then recently came the ruling that women are only women if they are born as female.This gave the nurses the courage to challenge the colleague known as Rose being in their changing room.
The right people were the winners, women!

ViceVersa

Women have the right to get changed in single sex spaces - that is the law. If you let a biological man - even one who now claims to identify as a woman - into those spaces, then they are no longer single sex.

Surely the answer is to cater for all, splitting existing changing rooms, to allow two large rooms, male and female, and a third much smaller room.

A cupboard would do nicely 😜

Where possible there should be a third space, otherwise the individual's safety could and has been compromised. I agree with Oreo you simply cannot be on the fence about this matter.

As reported earlier this week, it certainly didn't go well for the trans man who was admitted to to a male psychiatric unit and was raped within an hour of their arrival by two of the male patients already there. That person was rendered very vulnerable.

Cossy

Surely the answer is to give the small cupboard space to the trans nurse/s.

Not all trans people are obviously trans, and most certainly many pose no threat to women at all.

Straight men, like the ones who pose as trans or go into gay clubs are far more of a danger, they are not trans at all, just sex pests.

Straight men, like the ones who pose as trans or go into gay clubs are far more of a danger, they are not trans at all, just sex pests.

Allegedly it was "common knowledge" among theatre staff in the recovery unit that Rose had stopped taking female hormones and was trying to make their partner pregnant.

So if would appear that Rose had no place in a female changing room. Why was he in there?

Cossy

Rosie51
Of course to allow one 'special man' into the female changing room but to keep all the other males out is indirect discrimination against the other men, since they are all exactly the same sex.

Cossy
Oh that’s a bit far.

No it isn’t a bit far.
You either allow all men into female spaces or you allow none.
Allowing one special man would be used as a foothold for all the other men who consider themselves special.

They (note the pronoun) should be canvassing for spaces for themselves, not seeking to take safe spaces away from women.
How strange is their lack of respect for the people they actually pretend to be.

I read an account on FB (granted not the most trustworthy source) of a man who moved into a flat whilst the owner was away. He identified himself as the owner, used the owner’s name and facilities, wore his clothes etc. He argued that he really believed he was the flat owner.
Was he in the right?

Cossy

Galaxy

Lesbians are women.
This is a man.

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do,

Oh goodness.

Are you saying that all lesbians are what you call sex pests? 😲

Cossy

Surely the answer is to give the small cupboard space to the trans nurse/s.

Not all trans people are obviously trans, and most certainly many pose no threat to women at all.

Straight men, like the ones who pose as trans or go into gay clubs are far more of a danger, they are not trans at all, just sex pests.

50-60% of men who are claiming to be women, in UK prison have committed sex crimes.

Other countries stats show similar stats.

I think that shows a high percentage of problems in that community.

The problem with your last paragraph is how is anyone supposed to know who is or isn't 'pretending'?

The mental state of mind that encourages one to think in terms of questioning what sex one is, is a type of pretending also.

Autogynephilia does exist, and part of the fetish is to have others 'play' their part in supporting the mind set.

I believe it is incumbent on adults to protect childrens brains and bodies from indoctrination leading to mutilation.

To protect children and women from males who 'feel' a certain way is common sense.

BTW if you stop viewing the problem through the lens of "us and them" and therefore feeling guilty or confused (you claimed not to be well informed or understand?), and rather took the point of view that maybe the compassionate and helpful attitude to the individual who thinks this way, could be to not support the mindset, but to support therapy and long term care to explore why.

Afterall, it has often been said we cant just 'decide' to change our race at will. This is no different, but far more damaging to children and individuals who have been captured by this mindset.

My thoughts are we now need to concentrate on how this subject is being taught (or should it even be considered a subject to be taught?) in our schools.

I feel there is little attention giving to this.

My brother and husband pose no threat to women either, they have no business in women's spaces.
A man who uses womens spaces is by the nature of doing this a threat to women.

It beggars belief that this hospital trust felt sufficiently confident to go down this road in the first place.
Such muddle headedness, such arrogance, such outright misogyny.
But seriously organisations need to get with the times over this. The obvious first step would have been easy enough: ie provide another space ………or perish the thought get the other biological males who work there to broaden their minds, budge up, make way, etc and accept male to female trans people into their space. It is only fair.

Cossy

ViceVersa

Women have the right to get changed in single sex spaces - that is the law. If you let a biological man - even one who now claims to identify as a woman - into those spaces, then they are no longer single sex.

Surely the answer is to cater for all, splitting existing changing rooms, to allow two large rooms, male and female, and a third much smaller room.

The trouble is, that where such facilities have been provided - including 'gender neutral' toilets, for example - some trans-identifying men have refused to use them and insisted on forcing their way into the women's facilities instead.

Cossy

Rosie51

Of course to allow one 'special man' into the female changing room but to keep all the other males out is indirect discrimination against the other men, since they are all exactly the same sex.

Oh that’s a bit far.

I know many of you on here “don’t believe” in trans people, but there are genuinely people out there who firmly believe that they are born into the wrong genders body. I know one, a female to male and I’d defy anyone who didn’t know he wasn’t born male. He, of course, has to use male loos etc and has chosen only to have surgery on his bosons, not “down below”.

I don’t pretend to understand it all, but I do have enough respect for him and his wife to call then man and wife.

Oh I don't think any one on here is denying trans people exist, just many of us don't deny science and know that in the history of the world nobody has ever changed their sex.

It is widely acknowledged that testosterone is such a powerful hormone many female to male transitioners 'pass'. The effect can be quite profound, although of course it won't alter the skeleton so the hips will be of female proportion not typical male, and they remain female sex. Male to female is far harder to pass because the male skeleton is quite different to the female one and oestrogen is nowhere near as powerful as testosterone. Whether one passes or not is not the issue, people's biological sex remains unaltered.

Transwoman like Rose don't want third spaces, they want to use female spaces, the validation they think that brings, and for some the thrill of forcing unconsenting women to partake in their fantasy.

I have no problem with people dressing how they like but when it comes to women's single sex places then all males, no matter what they 'feel like' need to stay out. My husband wouldn't be a threat to any woman but I still don't think he should be allowed into the women's changing room.

As for your comment about lesbians that is beneath you, and an insult to them.

They have a choice of unisex toilets so I don’t see why they don’t have unisex changing rooms available and then people can choose whether they go to men, women’s or unisex changing rooms. Shouldn’t be an issue really.

nanna8

They have a choice of unisex toilets so I don’t see why they don’t have unisex changing rooms available and then people can choose whether they go to men, women’s or unisex changing rooms. Shouldn’t be an issue really.

As I said above, in some instances where those facilities have been provided, trans-identifying men have refused to use the unisex facilities and insisted on forcing their way into the women's facilities instead. Which says it all, really...

TerriBull

Where possible there should be a third space, otherwise the individual's safety could and has been compromised. I agree with Oreo you simply cannot be on the fence about this matter.

As reported earlier this week, it certainly didn't go well for the trans man who was admitted to to a male psychiatric unit and was raped within an hour of their arrival by two of the male patients already there. That person was rendered very vulnerable.

Its not just trans men that get raped in institutions or prisons it is a common experience, being obviously trans probably made it much more likely. All the they can do is segregate the different categories of inmates, obviously it didnt happen in this case. Womens institutions are much the same, both are full of seriously dangerous criminals as well as minor offenders.

Three types of spaces? Why not?

Allira

Cossy

Galaxy

Lesbians are women.
This is a man.

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do,

Oh goodness.

Are you saying that all lesbians are what you call sex pests? 😲

What a strange attitude, lumping lesbians together with predatory men. Do you actually know any lesbian women well?

I read that Nurse Rose had stopped taking their meds as they hoped to get their wife pregnant. Also, that s/he stared at and asked other nurses when they were getting changed.

Oreo

A cupboard would do nicely 😜

Naughty 😂😂

Cossy

Galaxy

Lesbians are women.
This is a man.

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do,

I think the inference from the nurses was that “Rose” was looking them up and down in a sexual manner, which is exactly what lesbians might do

But that has always been the case, because lesbians are women, in a women-only space. We appear to have been able to accommodate this though it's possible some may have found the experience uncomfortable but not threatening; and that could be because the female 'gaze' does not hold the same potential threat as the male-gaze.

???

iam64

Just to be very clear, I did say lesbians “might” look at other women in a sexual way, it doesn’t make them predatory, I simply meant a lesbian might find one of the nurses attractive.

As for the “do you know any lesbians?”

The answer is yes, and very well, in our household, currently living at home are our two lesbian daughters, our lesbian daughter in law, we also have a lesbian niece and a homosexual nephew. One of my oldest and dearest friends is homosexual.

As mentioned before I also have trans friends.

My point is many trans people simply want to live their lives without fear or prejudice, the same as us.

Trans people make up a fairly small percentage of our society, and even smaller proportion take part in professional sport and a very small percentage are dangerous to women (or anyone), in fact trans people are far more likely to be targeted by hate crime or harassment than be sexual predators.

I do agree that if even one nurse felt uncomfortable changing with Rise, separate changing facilities for Rose should have been found. Let’s be clear though, no one was ever naked.