How Christian is your Christmas?

Skye17 Behind all the midwinter festivals lies the winter solstice. The shortest day, followed by one that is longer and confirms the return of spring and regrowth.

All your references are to things that happened thousands. if not millions of years after earliest man first greeted with relief the first signs that the sun, without which no life was possible, was going to return and the food growing season would return.

I refer you to my post, page 5 Wed 20-Nov-24 19:28:24

Yes, I had read your post, M0nica. I think we are addressing slightly different points? You are saying that all cultures inevitably have a winter festival, and if we didn’t have Christmas we would have another one? I am saying that Christmas most probably did not hijack the specific date or customs of any given festival, such as the Roman Saturnalia or the Norse Yule. That can be true even if all, or most, cultures have a winter festival.

There does not seem to be much reliable information - with sources - online about a Celtic winter festival. According to a couple of websites the four Celtic festivals were held on 1 May, 1 November, 1 February and 1 August - not at midwinter.
www.roman-britain.co.uk/the-celts-and-celtic-life/celtic-seasonal-festivals/

Interesting points from the professional historian blog post I linked to, by Spencer McDaniel:

//Saturnalia was not celebrated on December 25th.//
It was originally celebrated on 17 December, and at later periods for longer, but it was always over on 23 December.

//Saturnalia was not a celebration of the winter solstice.//
It was a religious holiday in honour of the god Saturnus.

//most people in the ancient world did not have any kind of winter solstice festival.//

//people continued celebrating Saturnalia alongside Christmas long after the Roman Empire’s conversion to Christianity.//

'Just How Pagan Is Christmas Really?'
talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-is-christmas-really/

I think it is people as individuals and communities that shape winter festivities. even if not exact to the day - and moving calendars( Julian to Gregorian and other such moves can lead to changing dates for given events and then date being more important to event.

Most religions are syncretic and at the core of all religions are very similar beliefs and attitudes. But even then different parts of the same religion will be shaped by community values.

Growing up a catholic in England in the 1950s, I used to be so glad that my Irish ancestors had migrated to England. What i read and heard Irish catholicism horified me, but Irish catholicism arose from the crushing of Irish culture, denial of education, barring from the professions by the colonial power - England - that gave their priests, powers of leadership and protection.

Look at modern religions like Communism or Socialism and how differently countries like China, North Korea, and the late Yugoslavia interpreted it or compare Iranian or Taliban interpretations of Islam with those of most muslims in North Africa.

Your nativity scene is fantastic Jocork.

Fleurpepper

LaCrepescule

For me, Christmas is about the birth of Christ. I’m not particularly religious but it saddens me that this message is all but lost.

I understand, but it’s well known that it was a date arbitrarily selected by the church authorities, in conjunction with the incorporation of the Pagan winter solstice festival of Saturnalia into the Christian calendar, during the early 4th century.

This was done at the behest of Roman Emperor Constantine as a means of bringing the many Pagans in the then Roman Empire, into Christianity, as a means of strengthening the empire under one religion. Since there were no records of who Jesus was or when he was born, December 25th, immediately after the end of Saturnalia, was as good a date as any to pick.

Large numbers of the public mightn’t be aware of this, after all, the Christian church doesn’t advertise the fact, but all biblical scholars have long known it.

Since there were no records of who Jesus was

This is not the case. This is some of what would still be known about Jesus if all the New Testament books had ceased to exist early on:

(Summaries by J Warner Wallace in ‘Is There Any Evidence For Jesus Outside the Bible?’
coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/)

Thallus (52 AD)
//Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion.//

Tacitus (56-120 AD)
//Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.//

Mara Bar-Serapion (70 AD)
//He was a wise and influential man who died for His beliefs. The Jewish leadership was somehow responsible for Jesus’ death. Jesus’ followers adopted His beliefs and lived their lives accordingly.//

Phlegon (80-140 AD)
//Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated His wounds after he was resurrected.//

Pliny the Younger (61-113 AD)
//the first Christians believed Jesus was God, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers met regularly to worship Jesus.//

Suetonius (69-140 AD)
//Jesus’ followers were committed to their belief Jesus was God and withstood the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on His followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.//

Lucian of Samosata (115-200 AD)
//Jesus taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.//

Celsus (175 AD)
//Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God.//

Josephus (37-101 AD)
//Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians.//

Fleurpepper

LaCrepescule

For me, Christmas is about the birth of Christ. I’m not particularly religious but it saddens me that this message is all but lost.

I understand, but it’s well known that it was a date arbitrarily selected by the church authorities, in conjunction with the incorporation of the Pagan winter solstice festival of Saturnalia into the Christian calendar, during the early 4th century.

This was done at the behest of Roman Emperor Constantine as a means of bringing the many Pagans in the then Roman Empire, into Christianity, as a means of strengthening the empire under one religion. Since there were no records of who Jesus was or when he was born, December 25th, immediately after the end of Saturnalia, was as good a date as any to pick.

Large numbers of the public mightn’t be aware of this, after all, the Christian church doesn’t advertise the fact, but all biblical scholars have long known it.

it was a date arbitrarily selected by the church authorities, in conjunction with the incorporation of the Pagan winter solstice festival of Saturnalia into the Christian calendar, during the early 4th century.

 This was done at the behest of Roman Emperor Constantine

There is no evidence of Constantine giving any command for Saturnalia to be incorporated into the Christian calendar. Saturnalia, which was not a winter solstice festival, continued to be celebrated alongside what we now call Christmas for many years after the Roman Empire’s conversion to Christianity.
talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-is-christmas-really/

Selection of the date of Christmas:

//the reasoning was actually mainly purely Christian. The idea that Jesus was executed on the same day as his conception means he was thought to have died on March 25, which means his birth must be nine months later on … Dec 25.//
- Atheist historian Tim O’Neill
historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/

This reasoning was recorded by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 AD, 85 years before Constantine began his reign.

escaped

You mean like this?

Yes!
(Sorry, only just seen your post.)

I undid him and tried again but it still looks like a pig.

We celebrate Yule, the Winter Solstice, a festival hi-jacked just as a good number of others were hi-jacked. Easter for example.