Coronavirus - are older people being treated as expendable?

I support Gagajo. Crisis care by definition requires hard decisions based on the overall good. I don't care to be euthanized, but if a care decision is between me and someone raising a family, I give him my best wishes for a bright future.

Johnson was quite happy to try to illegally close down parliament a while back but for some reason he now doesn't want to make everyone do something that could potentially save thousands of lives.

Didn’t Peru shut down borders last week? I know I saw stories on stranded Canadians online

It's odd that we sit here and watch the disaster happening just in Italy and do nothing. We don't learn from their mistakes. A small town in Italy managed to halt the spread by isolating and testing, testing, testing. The Italians did not go into lockdown voluntarily. It's been widely reported that we are 3 weeks away from the situation in Italy, which has proved correct so far. The NHS will be on its knees from all the interacting today in 2 weeks time. Anyone would think that someone, somewhere wants to spread. Herd immunity I think it's called.

Why did we not make everyone returning from Italy self quarantine? [or why did we let them go there in the first place?].

But why are our borders not closed?

Peru shut their borders today

we still allow travellers form Iran Italy and China

How is this possible

Even the heedless young are not able to continue their lives as normal, with businesses closing all around them.
Why don't they understand the reasons for this?

Hmmm....‘some present’ sounds like more than one took home that message.

And I don't recall any No10 contradiction of the widely publicised herd immunity idea, at the time.

The problem is that because the government's first aim was containment and spreading the peak and their method of doing this was to try to isolate that group of people most likely to be seriously ill with the virus and need hospitalisation and possibly ventilation, all the emphasis has been on protection strategies for the over 70s and those with pre-existing medical problems.

I think this emphasis has resulted in many younger people, especially those in their late teens and twenties thinking that preventative measures only apply to the sick and old, not to them - and anyway if they get it, it will be no worse than any other winter bug.

I think they simply do not see the long term and wider picture. Which seems very odd, because their enthusiasm for demonstrating for more and faster climate change measures show that they are capable of looking at broader pictures.

I think it is time the much vaunted 'nudge' unit at No 10, pulled its socks up and worked out how to nudge this younger age group into a realisation about just how dangerous this pandemic is.

The common sense thoing is put the window. Nobody wants a totalitarian regime but maybe now is the time to clamp down. Are BJ and his team speaking today? Does anybody know?

They seem to think people will use common sense. But while so many people think they are immune from the virus, they won't. And every day that people refuse to isolate themselves as much as possible is a day that takes us closer to what is happening in Italy. We can still reverse this if we act now.

This is not a political jibe but why doesn't somebody just lay down some rules and be prepared to back them up? I don't understand it.

I think the NT has closed properties , a change of heart from their free carparking to encourage fresh air for all.

I think? Obviously I don't know.

'NT properties are now all closed, parks and gardens as well as houses'
...pray tell Monica why are they now closed? Matlock Bath is currently packed with bikers. The message is not getting through to people. Each day that people ignore social distancing guidelines will result in many more people dying..

I have just upset my youngest granddaughter (19 ) who phoned me, she said she was out about with a group of other students. She got very upset when I told her to keep a distance from others in the group. She said why? For her healthy age group are safe according to the media. When I pointed out that she and her friends could become carriers she started crying. It's crazy!

We are just NOT getting the right messages out

The report claimed that at one private event at the end of February, Cummings outlined then government’s strategy at the time in a way that was summarised by some present as “herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad.”

Hmmm....‘some present’ sounds like more than one took home that message.

And of course he is not the sort of man who would even think that! Most criminals opt for a ‘not guilty’ plea so I’m not reassured by his denial....given the well documented lies told by his boss.

NT properties are now all closed, parks and gardens as well as houses.

Pikachu your link is to a total denial that he ever said any such thing

Well it looks as if there are those advising the PM who think we are indeed expendable

Dominic Cummings argues to let old people die

And, if people aren't made to see how serious the situation is [ie it's only old people that will die etc] they won't listen to the 'advice' to social distance themselves. Which, given the way that people descended on seaside resorts and national trust properties, shows that people aren't listening to it because they think it 'won't affect me'.

It is a possibility, but the fact remains that most people will have it for a few days and that will be the beginning and end of it.

Running round like headless chickens and ramping the panic up by crying 'we're doomed, we're doomed' we are going to die, we are going to be disabled' helps no-one.

People who are seriously infected may not die, but be left with permanent lung damage. This is not just an affliction of the elderly. Government policy though?

The choice for who goes on a ventilator is very unlikely to be between a young fit person and an older person. The majority of those needing hospital care are older people . The average age of a Corvid-19 fatality is 81 with underlying medical problems.

The choice will be between two elderly people both with comorbidities. Me, say 77 and for this example, with asthma and high blood pressure, and you, possibly 5 years younger but with diabetes as well as asthma and high blood pressure.

The chances that any of us will go down in family history as giving up our lives during the Corvid-19 pandemic to save the life of a young mother, makes a good story, but is highly unlikely to happen.

trisher - it does seem extraordinary that The Times are publishing this. How did we get here?

I probably am being considered as expendable and undoubtedly if there is a shortage of ventilators whatever the situation I would expect the younger person if they had the better chance of survival to be given one. If it is government policy to think this though it raises an interesting question. Those voting the Tories into power are undoubtedly the older generation if their numbers are reduced will this see the end of the Tories?