Coronavirus - are older people being treated as expendable?

At the end of the day if we all take responsibility for ourselves and follow sensible precautions we can limit the amount of elderly people going into hospital. I’m keeping away from my grandsons. My son’s not happy but he’ll be in a worse position if I’m not around permanently.

I’ve just been talking to a friend who is a top doctor/lecturer in hygiene and infection control. She said there’s not enough emphasis on cleaning/disinfecting surfaces, door handles, handrails etc. This is as much a priority as handwashing which is getting all the coverage.

I agree the government are looking at this purely economically. If they were truly concerned for the nation's health they'd have shut airports/ports
weeks ago. I'm sure someone somewhere has put a savings value on all us pensioners going early, savings to them on pensions/heatlhcare and old age care

What a ridiculous post.

Cathieb I can go along with that. Which is a reason why I won't eat out as well because nobody is as particular or mindful of the dangers as yourself.

I don't think it is cynical to think that the government has decided that a high death rate amongst the old is tolerable, providing enough of the young and economically active survive. That's the sort of calculation governments make when they have to deal with crises, allocate scarce resources, etc.

I agree that I would rather die than have my children die. However, it is very frightening to think that, due to a shortage of critical care beds (not to mention overworked medical staff), older people will not be treated for what is a very horrible illness. I am not going to post the details of the progress of the illness, which you might not want to know, but suffice it to say that it is very grim.

My eldest daughter is in the USA and believes they are woefully unprepared for it there. She has studied the scientific data - that's her background - and her family are effectively going into lock down now. She says anything else is too little too late. She is lucky insofar as they can work from home. I suppose our only advantage as oldies is that many of us don't have workplaces to go to.

That is why the government wants the virus to peak more slowly and less acutely.

This is intended as joke so hope no-one gets too bothered by it. If the people most likely to die are pensioners (and I’m one) then think how much the government will save on pensions. Might even be enough to provide for the £billions promised in the budget released the other day? Just saying.

Oh and while I think of it....who will be asked to step up to the post to child-mind if the schools close? Granny and Gramps!

A doctor working on the front line in Italy which has a health service far superior to ours has tweeted regularly about the problems being faced - people over 60 and those younger than 60 with underlying conditions are NOT being tubed because they do not have the resources and I’d they arrest they are no attempts to resuscitate them - so yes the over 60s and vulnerable young people are being denied treatment - this is because their system can’t cope and they know that this virus is so dangerous if it gets an older person’s lungs then it will quickly affect the liver and heart so the chances of death are higher - the effort is being focused on the young.
But at 70 I don’t feel old - I still work and do voluntary work as well and perform a useful function as a grandparent with much life experience and a huge intellectual xo tribute on to make through years of working in academia - I am sincerely disappointed with the response of the under 50s to our plight - there is one reported case of coronavirus in Turkey yet the government has locked borders with some neighbouring countries, closed unis and schools and stopped the traditional greetings involving hugging and kissing - frankly I think our government is not doing anything near enough for old people - it’s all about the economy and sure we have to think about that but who is thinking about the elderly at home who have two Carers coming in three times a day and who are visiting others - I hear nothing about this swathe of the population and can only presume that the plan is to kill the weak and vulnerable off - and sort out a problem which the go to has brought about through ten years of austerity - what a disgusting lot we have - our health system has been reduced to one which is less than half the capacity of Italy’s and we still have our schools and unis open!

I am not a medically qualified person but common sense tells me that the UK government are following the right advice. It is right to slow things down and try to avoid peaks so that the NHS is not overwhelmed. It is right to allow the virus to spread so that we develop immunity for the future. We do not live in a nanny state so we can choose to stay at home, avoid large gatherings, not travel unless vital, etc.
For those who are saying that we don't have the necessary equipment such as ventilators. Imagine if we spent millions on equipment in case we have an epidemic we would have to cut back elsewhere and others would die. After such an epidemic had passed the excess equipment would go in to storage and quite likely be obsolete or inappropriate by the time the next epidemic came along.
In answer to the original post, I don't feel that we are being treated as expendable but let's be realistic if the choice is between us or our children and grandchildren it's a no brainer. The government have told us oldies to take extra care so let's do it.

It's certainly true that PM Johnson has not taken heed of what the WHO said on Thursday and is not listening to his Health Advisors. The following quotation sums it up for me:
"“It’s better to be ahead of the curve,” said Devi Sridhar, director of the global health governance program at Edinburgh University."
Johnson is way behind the curve having decided to wait until the wave sweeps over us. It's time for a vote of no confidence in him. He is needlessly putting lives at risk and in the most cruel way. Just as Trump is doing. Maybe we will see a Law case brought against Johnson for not acting on advice of his Health ministers and WHO when someone is ill or a family member dies and they can see it could have been avoided if the right measures had been taken.
Italy has more elderly people than other European countries which may have raised their numbers needing hospitalisation all at the same time.

I would try to avoid mixing with people from now on. Do your own prevention. The fewer people you are in contact with, the less your chance of catching it. If you live with a child still at school, maybe seriously think of keeping a big distance away from each other for a while? it will feel terribly strange, but your DGC will understand. I know it could still travel to you, but please try to remain positive and let us all, us Grans and Grandpas, stick together and keep each others' spirits up.
It really might mean not enough ECMO machines, but I do think oxygen will be available. Try not to be scared. Try to be strong and positive and do things that keep you happy, even though you are staying away from people.

Tweedle24 Fri 13-Mar-20 11:48:49 Thanks. Pretty sure when I watched the speech he said not to call 111 but to do online. OK for all of us but not everyone. Also read that if we do it online we will be told we are low risk unless we have travelled from one of the selected countries or know we have been close to someone with the virus. I think it has probably gone beyond that now.

I think it is appalling that we are no longer testing anyone unless they are so ill they are in hospital.

Earlier this week read the report of a previous Scottish Govt adviser and health professional who said the virus would be useful in freeing up bed blockers! Think she meant those in care homes would be victims and then bed blockers could move from hospitals to care homes. Expendable - yes!

Some young people just see themselves as invincible and older people as having had a life anyway. That is just normal really, so unless life comes and shows them otherwise they will see us as expendable. Problem is there is no `bargaining` with something like this. It will take who ever it wants just like Cancer does.

Yes.

Let's face it we are expendable isn't every one

I agree the government are looking at this purely economically. If they were truly concerned for the nation's health they'd have shut airports/ports weeks ago.

What help would that be? I am far from pro this government but the science doesn't seem to be telling us much different from country to country (excluding the US where Professor Trump is the greatest and the biggest where science is concerned). Some countries may have a problem with people moving from a poor country to a rich country but we are an island for heaven's sake. I think we would notice if that was happening. Is there anything nativism doesn't affect?

May have skipped a few pages but just wanted to say having read someone's erroneous statement that there are only 50 ventilators in the uk that in our local district hospital there are are at least 25 possibly more. That was what DH said off the top of his head. He had been talking to a friend this morning who is a lead clinician for icu here and although it was a social chat they were discussing the virus and how they were preparing for it. There are plenty of wards in redundant hospitals which can be opened up but of course staff are needed although I firmly trust in the general goodwill and common sense of the local population.
@Baggs it's more "old age hath yet his honour and his toil" for us oldies but I did like your post as that is one of my favourite poems

I didn't think it was clear Nonnie. We have a family member who needs to call 111 if he is ill. We have had to make it clear he should still so while hoping and praying (in a secular way) that he doesn't need to.

Tillybelle, apart from possible lawsuits and a vote of no confidence, I think BJ may come under international criticism for his incompetence. The WHO say:

'WHO has been assessing this outbreak around the clock and we are deeply concerned both by the alarming levels of spread and severity, and by the alarming levels of inaction.'

(also)
'Allowing uncontrolled spread should not be a choice of any government, as it will harm not only the citizens of that country but affect other countries as well.'

www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/events-as-they-happen

Has anybody googled a book, published in 1981 by Dean Koontz, called The Eyes of Darkness. page 333 in particular?
Interesting reading.

I am very conflicted. I think Boris is kind of right - is it right to ruin the economy to save a load of old people some of whom might have only had a couple more years in us anyway, then leave everyone under 60 struggling to make a living for years to come? This could be the UK's opportunity to get ahead economically. Assuming all the other countries don't refuse to do business with us on the basis we don't share their moral principles

Saw on mumsnet

I’m on a forum for nurses, one of them is working in Italy and expressed her concerns at the UKs seeming lack of interest.

Their intensive care units are overflowing, there are YOUNG sick people who are normally very fit and well. It’s not just the elderly and unwell at high risk..

This Government is too slow not doing enough to stop the spread. Same as Trump and America

I would suggest you listen or watch the Chief Scientific Officer's (Sir Patrick Vallance) interview which was on Radio 4 and various TV channels this morning. This will explain to you why the government is recommending the current advice. It also explains why it is not recommending the cancellation of large events. The advice is aimed at protecting older people rather than treating us as expendable because it is advising anyone with even mild symptoms to self isolate. The UK has some of the best scientists in the world and I would rather follow their advice than listen to some of the uninformed views that currently abound on social media and other channels.