Coronavirus - are older people being treated as expendable?

Well, putting Coronavirus aside, if the choice was to either treat a sick baby who needs to be in Intensive Care, or an 89 year old in Intensive Care, which would you choose? Would you give a new heart valve to a 96 year old when cots are unavailable in NICU for unwell babies? I know which group of patients I'd prioritise. I think we do have to be sensible and give priority to those who haven't had chance to live their life but it must be a horrible decision for medical personnel to have to take. I just hope the elderly patients are at least helped to be comfortable, it must be very scary to be so ill you know you're staring death in the face and can't even hug your loved ones for fear of cross-infection. Awful for families too but being realistic we don't all get the chance to physically say goodbye at the very end, which is why it's so important to let people know you love them all the time, don't leave it till they've gone and it's too late. In our family it's a phrase we often say, we mean it too, each and every time and show it in how we help and support each other. Life has taught me you never know when you'll lose someone you love dearly, young or old. Sorry if I sound callous, I'm not, but I am realistic and I know NHS resources are limited so choices do have to be made. I think reaching 85 is a good long life and that thereafter life saving treatments should be reduced and palliative care given unless that's more expensive than the cost of the life saving treatment and possible continued care for potentially another 10 years, maybe longer. It can be very expensive to keep someone that old alive, it just seems wrong to me when there are children struggling to live with ongoing conditions, waiting for money to be made available for them to be treated.

I think the NHS may cope because apparently A & E departments are almost empty at the moment. This seems to imply that many people who would normally use them really don't need to.

Our nearest large hospital has prepared 120 beds so far and none of them are in use yet. They say there will be enough ventilators.

My issue is that we won't know how many people have the virus now that the only testing to be done will be on people in hospital. Not everyone can use 111 online and BJ said not to call them, that worries me for some lonely people without help.

Never even crossed my mind. I've been over 50 for some time and also had a lung condition for some time so know I will be at risk. Doing all the sensible stuff but my mindset is that living is risky. Could get run over on the way home. So I refuse to panic and will continue to enjoy life for as long as I have it.
In a Sophie's Choice scenario I would say save my kids as they are both parents.

I am not quite 85 yet, but I found it sort of sardonically amusing to hear the PM say something like lots of people are going to lose lots of loved ones.. why didn`t he just say, lots of us are going to die?

both my dh (now dead) and I have made a statement that is lodge with our GP that we do not want to be resusitated (s.p?)
or given life saving treatement...We made those statements when in our 50`s, so not just as an 80 year old.

and of course the Government etc are looking after the economy before people.... that is what this Society has come to.. it`s all about money

Wildswan is right. It would depend on the best chance of recovery ,which would not necessarily age related,

EllanVannin What is your point about the homeless and drug addicts? Are their lives less important than others?

I contacted elderly people I know(I'm 54) to tell them if things get any worse I'd get them shopping, medicine etc that they may need for them to stay home. I was told "oh I like to get out, it breaks up my day, I'll be fine. I'm getting worried as two of them are in their mid 80s, they won't listen. They have come through so much in their lives I think they are convinced this is just something else that will 'just blow over'...

Tweedle24, I was comparing elderly lives to others meaning are our lives less important.!!

Nonnie Thank you for your reassuring post. I am sure the NHS is more ready than the scaremongers would have us believe.

Boris did not tell us not to use not to use 111. He said we should self isolate if we get a new persistent cough or fever but, only to ring 111 if the condition worsened. I am sure that is to relieve the pressure on the 111 service,

Chronically funded NHS can only cope with so many, probably best to prioritise younger people. I and various other family members have all made advance statements/decisions. Hopefully they'd let me go?

Would I, at 79 be resuscitated against a homeless drug/alcohol user ? No chance ! So Tweedle24, start something if you may.

I too heard an Italian doctor say on the news that they're having to decide who has the best chance of survival before allocating ventilators. This is bound to happen here if the situation escalates, which I can't imagine it won't. Horrible situation for the medics to be in, and I'm sure I'm one of the expendable ones, even if my family still needs me. And yes, I'm sure the exchequer has already realised that pensions and sickness benefits will reduce if we all are killed off by this virus.

EllanVannin. I think everyone’s life is of equal value and, as I said, the recovery expectancy is the most relevant if there has to be ‘rationing’, However, I hope it will not get to that.

I don't think we are being overlooked at all. In fact our age group have been given specific advice surely. Our main concern should be becoming infected by someone who has contracted the virus, but shows no symptoms. I am sure we have all weathered a few epidemics in our time, so we have to hope this one will be the same.

This morning I was feeling really fearful after Boris made his remark about losing many loved ones before their time. Just think how much careful thought supposedly went into his statement to avoid panic, and that is what they came up with.
My daughter who lives around 130 miles away telephoned before 8am trying to sound casual. She was clearly worried about us both. her father does not mix with lots of people but I do. she asked me if I would do the social distancing idea until things are clearer, not go to the pool or the gym, postpone my spa day next week, basically stay home and enjoy my gardening. To be honest I was relieved. I have some underlying health issues and I feel quite vulnerable to catching this virus. My friends have been far too cavalier and 'British' , shrugging it off as nothing. Let us not have to feel guilty if we are really anxious about the current situation. I phoned the spa and they were lovely. They will send me a voucher for the full amount to use within six months.

Being its older people who are dying of corona virus , this is good for the government . Not for us though . Being people are living longer , we are a drain on the government . By getting rid of the old means less people on the planet , housing being freed up and less of a drain on the nhs . Its a gamble who will get this virus and up to all of us to keep ourselves safe . There are to many people saying it's just flu and there is to many people who are not taking it seriously .

There are too many people writing nonsense on social media. I am 79 and not worried. Washing my hands when I have been out as required. I am going to a concert tomorrow evening and to church on Sunday.

The money has gone into private businesses, who have been ripping the NHS off for 50+ years ever since they removed a particular legislation that originally protected the NHS from legal action over accidental deaths (i.e. you couldn't sue the NHS). I can't remember what the legislation was called. but since that time back in the early 70's the NHS has had hundreds of thousands of legal actions against it for various mistakes. I for example was hit by a car traveling around 60mph and knocked off my bike while cycling to work. I was left with a badly broken back losing almost 4 inches in height and a serious head injury that has left me with brain damage (I have to inject myself with hormones for the rest of my life because my pituitary gland was macerated in the accident). It took almost a year for the hospital to admit its mistake over the broken back and 7 years for them to finally scan my brain, (all because at the time of my attendance at the A&E department, which was on a Monday morning, (the worst time to go to an A&E department due to weekend sports injuries and skivers from work), there was only standing room in the place and I was left on the ambulance gurney in a corridor, so after an x ray, the doctor had no light box to check the x-ray and just held it up to a florescent light and missed the breaks in my lower thoracic region (they didn't x ray anything above T7), At the time of the accident they sent me home from a specialist trauma hospital diagnosed with a minor sprain and bruising and gave me some low level analgesia. I knew something was wrong becasue I couldn't stand and I felt like I was in a fug that persists to this day almost 15 years post accident.

I was accused of trying to carry out an insurance scam in part due to the rushed discharge notes that had been written at the end of the nurses shift saying that I was fit and healthy apart from their diagnosis of a sprain and bruising. Because I'd been sent home with no treatment apart from some low level analgesia they basically wrote a load of codswallop e.g. that I was able to walk, my pain score was only 1 etc, yet I remember the pain being excruciating and I was never able to walk for months). Also, a mistake in the doctors notes where a date had been wrongly written, it appeared that I was lying about my weigh as post accident I'd put on around 3 stones due to being sedentary for several months, yet because of the mistake in the date (and the A&E discharge notes) it appeared that the statements had been made before the accident when my weight was much lower. It then took nine years for the legal process to complete where the legal team earned more than what I was awarded for the injuries I received.

Another example of why the NHS is suffering due to finance:

When I was working in the A&E department of my local hospital during my RGN training; as a keen electronics enthusiast, I was curious as to how much the department had paid for a particular blood warmer. Basically it was a small painted metal box with a heater and a thermostat on a metal stand. I was told that it had cost over £20 000. Really!

Seriously, the materials to build such a device would cost at the most £150 (I researched it). I realise that such equipment has to go through a lengthy testing etc, but £20 000 for one blood warmer, and that is just one of hundreds of devices that the NHS has to purchase from private companies,. who are charging thousands for the simplest of items. even plasters and bandages are being sold and ridiculously inflated prices.

On top of that the number of high end managers that are being paid hundreds of thousands every year, when staff shortages on the firing line are at the worst in years. I ended up leaving the NHS (I loved my job) after my department at a well known eye hospital in Manchester lost sixteen staff over a period of 18 months and didn't replace any of them. It got to a point that we were doing extra shifts, working back to back 14 hour days with literally no breaks and at the end of a shift we would still be there over an hour later due to various activities such as counting out all the controlled drugs (due in part to a staff member stealing CD drugs for her drugged up boyfriend, who was thankfully found out after a long investigation) . Mistakes with that sort of work ethic were inevitable; for example, we had a Russian lady who had come over to the UK to visit family and had a really serious eye infection that was tracking back along her optic nerve. It was decided that her eye needed to be removed. They took out the wrong eye and left her totally blind.

Sorry for the rant and going off topic somewhat, I feel really strongly about the NHS, which I believe is being decimated by those who wish to see it based on the American system and greedy private enterprise who are themselves becoming rich off of the NHS. Grrrrrr

I am sad to see how much cynicism this post has highlighted.
I agree with the posters who feel that the NHS is not treating older people as expendable.
I worked as a district nurse for ten years, and I can tell you that the older generation were on the whole treated with great respect.
The whole healthcare system is under such strain everywhere, I cannot imagine how nurses and GP’s are coping at the moment. Lastly please spare a thought for those hard working district nurses out there...they are always the last to be considered.

There’s only 4760 ITU beds in the country. The sad reality is the NHS doesn’t have the staff, resources or magical powers that unfortunately people think. Unfortunately the infirm are at highest risk. We all need to take precautions now, postpone unescesary hospital and GP appointments.

Hello, I have been a Lurker here for ages and thought it was about time I joined in.

The figure of 50 for NHS ventilators is from a TV interview with Matt Hancock. I remember it clearly because the follow up was so shocking.

Matt Hancock was referring to an earlier report in the Guardian that England has only 15 beds available to treat severe respiratory failure. He said that figure was out of date and “We have 50 now, and we can ramp that up to 500 and then if necessary 5,000".

It was subsequently revealed that the figures of 500 and 5,000were incorrect and referred to "all beds", not respirators. Perhaps it was a mistake,but could well have been numbers plucked out of the air.

Don't know if there have been any follow ups to this (5,000 free beds seems high even for the whole of the country).

Italy is already rationing care by prioritising the younger, healthier patients. This is being referred to from many sources. But here's one www.businessinsider.com/prioritizing-covid-19-patients-based-age-likely-wont-fly-us-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

Italy has twice the critical care capacity of the UK, also available from many sources
www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-countries-with-the-most-critical-care-beds-per-capita-infographic/#1775637b7f86

Nearly all medics agree, there is no way the UK health service can cope with large numbers needing treatment for coronavirus.

Our government could have chosen to follow other countries lead in trying to delay this as much as possible, which would allow more time for treatments to be refined, equipment and staffing to be improved, research to continue etc.

Instead Boris and his advisors have chosen to take the line, let's get on with it, and accept some people will die.

I don't think the NHS staff consider the elderly expendable, but I think they will have no choice but to watch them die, as the government appear to do so.

I don't think people are having a dig at the nhs . If a doctor was in a situation where the there was only one ventilator available and he had to choose between a older person or young person , it's a no brainer . If it was me i would hope the doctor would see sense and give it to the younger person . I am in my fiftys and have had a life . The younger person still has a life to live and would be more use to this planet than me . This virus takes the old and weak .

whiterabbit Good post. Without going into it I am aware of the waste in the NHS which runs into many millions every year. My ex GP once told me that the amount of waste in the NHS made her blood boil so she tried not to think about it. I know when I moved house last year and changed GP it took several attempts to get my details changed. Appointment letters being sent out twice or arriving AFTER the appointment so the appointment was missed. Apparently some appointment letters are sent by an outside agency. When I attended my outpatient appointment last week to see my regular nurse she told that the various departments don’t communicate with each other and even after, yet again, supplying my new (9 months ago) address and GP, the letter was still sent to my old GP practice. Thankfully, a copy was sent to me as it contained information regarding my GP carrying out blood tests.

Elliesgran Thank you for that. I knew I had heard it on the tv.

Yes thats the impression i get ☹