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(95 Posts)
hollysteers Fri 10-Apr-20 01:21:20

When I see film of doctors nurses etc. in Spain, Italy and other countries on the news, they are so covered up, it’s impressive.
Full body suits, goggles plus outer headgear, Then film of our medical staff with flimsy plastic aprons and cotton masks. It makes me so angry (and frightened) Anyone else feel the same?

NotSpaghetti Sat 11-Apr-20 08:27:36

Yes, but I think the lack of PPE is not just a logistical one as the government implies. The NHS is sourcing PPE from all sorts of unusual places - I read this today:

Basically they have contacted a small business who supplies medical fetishists looking for scrubs.

Callistemon Sat 11-Apr-20 09:07:36

Unfortunately, you may see some medical professionals on tv in Spain, Italy etc, wearing full PPE gear but the reality is different.
I could post photos of people I know in this country in full PPE too.

What is your point, Hollysteers?

grannysyb Sat 11-Apr-20 09:13:23

My stepdaughter is an aneathsatist in a London hospital and says they are fine as far as ppe goes. Sadly they lost a doctor to the virus recently, my DH worries about her, but is also very proud of her.

GrannyLaine Sat 11-Apr-20 09:49:06

The media will choose any photo they wish to convey whatever they are trying to imply. I am increasingly frustrated by the way they take two unconnected soundbites and link them with the word 'while' to imply cause and effect. Clive Myrie does it a lot.

GagaJo Sat 11-Apr-20 10:07:41

There have been requests on social media in my local area for anyone that has PPE.

My old school is making visors. The academy chain they're in (I think 6 or 7 schools) thinks they have enough material to make about 3000.

Did you read about the three nurses who were forced to tear up bin bags to wear? All three (unsurprisingly) now have C19.

There is a lack of PPE. The country is scrambling to get it for our medics. But it's shocking that we should need teachers and grannies making things piecemeal.

The Tories, many of whom have had NHS treatment need to come out of this with a commitment to the NHS.

NotSpaghetti Sat 11-Apr-20 10:51:07

I think in intensive care the equipment is almost certainly available but in the community (midwives, care workers for example), I think it's a different story.

Washerwoman Sat 11-Apr-20 11:48:01

Our DD has had all her PPE refitted and her mask tested and its way better than any protection she's ever had.She feels more at risk in Morrison's after her experience there the other day.However that is ICU where the viral load is extreme.However there are so many areas of health care and emergency services now requiring protection on a scale like never before and I think -though I may be wrong each trust sorts out there own procurement of gear.It must be a logistical nightmare. Worldwide.

GrannyGravy13 Sat 11-Apr-20 12:38:00

Washerwoman you are correct each NHS trust has its own procurement officer generally on a salary of £50,000+ pa.

Approximately 60% of PPE is manufactured in China. It is a logistical nightmare globally(apart from China) not just in the U.K.

Callistemon Sat 11-Apr-20 13:12:24

I asked my relative if she had the full PPE gear as she is starting ICU training, and she said yes, they are well supplied.

I have seen pictures of desperate nurses wearing bin bags in other countries, making their own equipment out of what they can find.

It is horrendous and it is no time to be point scoring about where is better than somewhere else.

Hetty58 Sat 11-Apr-20 13:29:10

Callistemon, it's not about point scoring, it's about trying to work out the truth - as we have wildly different stories depending on who we listen to. Hancock hasn't helped with his warning about 'overuse' when nurses and carers are still waiting for kit!

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 13:45:04

There are different levels of PPE for differenf tasks

Same as TB you only need a viser for someone who is actively coughing or on high flow gas.

The TV photos are of people doing intubation and resusitation and suction and working with high flow gasses.

Normal apron and gloves are the RIGHT PPE for non arosol dtoplet contact.

The heavu duty PPE you ses on telly and on ITU staff has risks to the wearee: exhaustion, dehydration, fainting, pressure sores. Staff wearing them work in shorter bursts. The benefits have to outweigh the risks oc the PPE itself.

Those high tech PPEs are also worn in settings where the workers are concentrating on one high deoendancy patient at a time. You cant walk around a ward in it!

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 13:47:03

E.g. one story about a mental healtg nurse who sadly died of PPE.

The media said he had "no PPE"
but if you read below the headline, he worked in settinga that were no higher risk than a shop, NONE of his service users were suspected of having CV and he probably caught it outside of work.

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 13:47:42

It would have been inappropriate, dangerous even, for him to have bee wearing a filter mask at work the whole time

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 13:56:27

In the hotter weather, full body PPE becomes more and more risky to the wearer.

UK hospitals do have it but are holding it back from people who want to wear it inappropriately. And those people are shouting loudest to the media and on social media.

A viser does nothing unless you are up near a person. Its not going to do anything for the cleaner out in the hall except exhaust and overheat them

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 13:58:15

And. If your body is exhausted and dehydrated from wearing unecessary full body PPE all day, and then you catch CV in the supermarket, you'll be less fit to fight it

GrannyGravy13 Sat 11-Apr-20 14:00:44

notanan2 brilliant and factual posts ??

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 14:03:10

TB is a perfect example/comparison because it shows that different levels of PPE were chosen before the global crisis.

Not much PPE was needed with someone who was TB+ive with no symptoms. They could go home to care homes. Ordinary everyday universal precautions were enough.

If someone had TB and had active symptoms on a ward, ordinary gloves apron and surgical masks werw enough. Visers only added if actively coughing

Fuller body PPE was used in some settings like ITU or if the TB sufferer was having high flow O2 or other more invasive ward based treatments (which they do not do for CV on wards)

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 14:17:17

You biggest risk is still your hands.
Our best ways of prevention are not fancy or high tech. Distance if possible. Handwashing and extra cleaning of communal items/areas. Good old florence nightingale stuff.

A fancy mask can give false reassurance and lead to laxer efforts with the basics. You can see this for yourself if you are still going to supermarkets: see how a lot of the gloved and masked folks are worse at keeping the 2m rule than the non masked/gloved. And they probably dont even realise theyre doing it.
Its psychological protection rather than any real risk reduction

quizqueen Sat 11-Apr-20 14:28:19

You are comparing our 'free at the point of use tax funded' health care with other European insurance based health care systems. If you want our country to be as good as you perceive other countries to be, then you have to move to the same system which produces the result you seem to like.

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 14:30:13

We have better PPE stores and controls than some EU payer system countries.
Some of whom have purchased contaminated or faulty PPE because they dont have the same supply chain checks that we have

elfies Sat 11-Apr-20 14:36:30

There are groups on facebook , making scrubs for nurses requesting it for their hospitals or teams . Making it with fabric they're buying themselves from ebay or private firms , I don't think the nurses requesting it or the people making it would be doing this if as the government has provided equipment for all .
For the government to dare suggest that nurses are misusing the scrubs ,and indirectly that they would deprive workmates is disgusting, and as for Matt whatsisname saying dead doctors and nurses may have caught the virus in their outside lives rather than at work ,is truly horrifying . Are they trying to avoid someone sueing or paying compensation ,to these public servants who have paid with their lives ? If so don't bother clapping Boris , you really don't understand what these nurses and doctors are risking

Callistemon Sat 11-Apr-20 14:41:03


Yes, good posts.
And with all that gear on and working long shifts they must be at risk of dehydration and be losing salts too which may put the staff working in ICU at greater risk.

notanan2 Sat 11-Apr-20 14:42:18

For the government to dare suggest that nurses are misusing the scrubs ,and indirectly that they would deprive workmates

But that has happened.
Scrubs offer no better protection than normal uniforms.
However, because people see front line/itu workers in them (ppl who worse scrubs daily before CV) some see them as somehow higher tech or necessary or protective but theyre not.

The scrubs have been locked away because the areas where scrubs are necessary or not hasnt actually changed.

Wearing scrubs all day on a ward is NO safer than wearing a uniform

Callistemon Sat 11-Apr-20 14:46:57

I didn't understand why there was a cal, for anyone who could to sew scrubs as there is a shortage.

Then I realised that perhaps scrubs were needed for all those who have volunteered to go back in to help, having, eft or retired, but may not be working in ICUs.

People still may require a lot of nursing whilst they are recovering but are no longer infectious.