Why we are still in deep trouble

I have heard that anyone arriving was made to quarantine for 14 days in hotels
Callistemon As you've also heard every State is enforcing rules similar to Victoria regarding 14 days quarantine in hotels for new arrivals. I've also heard that early on, the guards were from a private company and not well trained in the duties required of them, and rumour also has it that some were accused of , wait for it, having sex with detainees and of course moving on to spread whatever other nasties they may have caught.
So I wouldn't rely on "rumours" as a reliable information source.
As you know, we are under an 8pm to 5am curfew and a lot of dedicated professional people are working very hard to overcome an unprecedented threat to us all'
I have every confidence in them and wish them well!
And believe it or not, we are still seeing ladies on TV News fighting for their "rights" by refusing to wear a mask!
Sorry about this plug for our professionals, but I just happen to live here in Melbourne and so have more than just a passing interest in OZ.
Good Health
OoRoo

Well said urmstongran. IOM government shut their borders late March and have had no cases for 75 days. All back to normal, apart from travelling which is allowed, but followed by 14 days quarantine.

Goodness knows how deep the world recession will be.

MaizieD

^Which is why squabbling about counting methods, dithering, obfuscation and inefficiency isn't acceptable. I'm fed up of the lying and excuses.^

But it's not 'squabbling', is it? It's trying to whitewash the government by its supporters.

I was being generous.

Sussexborn

Maisie : Do you seriously think any other political party would have coped any better? Labour seems to be intent on destroying their own party and would probably still be arguing who should be in charge and then issuing court proceedings against whichever poor sucker they decided on. Starmer is struggling to get a grip and only half the party seem to be supporting him. Their gigantic egos are killing off any support they may have left.

Now who's making political capital?

This government is doing an appalling job!

maddyone

I am absolutely not racist. White people congregating on beaches and in bars and streets, black people on marches, people celebrating Eid in huge family groups. It’s all the same to me, they are all helping spread the virus. The scenes in London the weekend the pubs opened appalled me, people squashed together, mainly young people. Now we’re being told the virus is being spread by families meeting indoors in large groups, why can’t they meet in their gardens? Young people are also now said to be spreading the virus due to refusal to follow social distancing, especially after a night out and drinking alcohol.
We reap what we sow. We’ll see the results over the next few months.

What about Trafford? It's a white, relatively wealthy area, but has one of the highest infection rates in Greater Manchester.

Why is the infection rate in my area (very white and very wealthy and, on average, with a disproportionate number of over 60s) increasing?

Sussexborn

I was about to say what JE said at 11.56. For years some of us have been saying the country is overcrowded and services stretched to breaking point because of this. Because of this truth we are labelled as racist. There isn’t the huge money tree that some like to imagine.

Too many making political capital out of this disaster which is vile and monstrous in my view.

I don't understand your reasoning. Services are stretched to breaking point because they're underfunded. Your claim is not not a truth.

Too many people handing out contracts to their mates, which certainly is vile and monstrous.

And all the people rushing off the Spain, a country with high cases of Covid19. There are other places which are safer if they want to go on holiday.

I am absolutely not racist. White people congregating on beaches and in bars and streets, black people on marches, people celebrating Eid in huge family groups. It’s all the same to me, they are all helping spread the virus. The scenes in London the weekend the pubs opened appalled me, people squashed together, mainly young people. Now we’re being told the virus is being spread by families meeting indoors in large groups, why can’t they meet in their gardens? Young people are also now said to be spreading the virus due to refusal to follow social distancing, especially after a night out and drinking alcohol.
We reap what we sow. We’ll see the results over the next few months.

Nobody will ever know the true figure of how many people have died

Excess deaths have been lower than average in England for the last 6 weeks though

Maisie : Do you seriously think any other political party would have coped any better? Labour seems to be intent on destroying their own party and would probably still be arguing who should be in charge and then issuing court proceedings against whichever poor sucker they decided on. Starmer is struggling to get a grip and only half the party seem to be supporting him. Their gigantic egos are killing off any support they may have left.

I was about to say what JE said at 11.56. For years some of us have been saying the country is overcrowded and services stretched to breaking point because of this. Because of this truth we are labelled as racist. There isn’t the huge money tree that some like to imagine.

Too many making political capital out of this disaster which is vile and monstrous in my view.

Which is why squabbling about counting methods, dithering, obfuscation and inefficiency isn't acceptable. I'm fed up of the lying and excuses.

But it's not 'squabbling', is it? It's trying to whitewash the government by its supporters.

maddyone

No growstuff, I don’t want that and I’m sure others don’t either.

Which is why squabbling about counting methods, dithering, obfuscation and inefficiency isn't acceptable. I'm fed up of the lying and excuses.

No growstuff, I don’t want that and I’m sure others don’t either.

BTW For herd immunity to be achieved, at least 60% of the population would need to be immune (preferably 80%).

Leaving aside the suspicion that being infected doesn't give long-term immunity, that means that 39,600,000 people would need to be infected. If the death rate is 0.5% (and nobody is absolutely sure) that means that 198,000 people would die and many others would be left with life-long side effects.

Is that what people really want?

Agree that deaths have been counted differently but thee excess death rate is factual, difficult to argue with and as a country we still fared badly compared against other European countries.

JenniferEccles

Exactly Callistemon
That was my point. Regardless of whether someone has serious after effects of the virus, the fact that countries record death totals differently is exactly why it’s meaningless to try to compare different countries.

In any case ALL confirmed virus cases are counted here, even those where people had it mildly and fully recovered.

It's accepted that the methods vary between countries. However, this example produces minimal differences. The fact is that the UK has one of the highest excess death rates and many deaths were/still are avoidable. Denying that is sticking your head in the sand.

I agree with Lemongrove

Exactly Callistemon
That was my point. Regardless of whether someone has serious after effects of the virus, the fact that countries record death totals differently is exactly why it’s meaningless to try to compare different countries.

In any case ALL confirmed virus cases are counted here, even those where people had it mildly and fully recovered.

To be honest, I agree with all you, everyone has made valid points. The only thing I take issue with is that the virus is mutating, as growstuff says, everything I have read indicates that if the virus is mutating, it is mutating very slowly, and has not changed significantly since the beginning of all this. Which should give us hope for a vaccine.
I think everyone has to assess their own level of risk and vulnerability and go forward from there. I found the total lockdown, not that it ever was really a total lockdown, but I found it depressing and my mental health was definitely affected, in particular because I have had a gum infection which has been treated with antibiotics for two solid months, with apparently no end in sight. The Dental Hub didn’t see me as urgent. Anyway, long story short, I’m going private and having the surgery on Thursdays. My relief is huge. The government have put the economy before citizens and this has been catastrophic for some people. The lockdown was only brought in to protect the NHS, which of course we all agree with, but to leave others such as dental patients, cancer sufferers etc without treatment is simply not good enough. I particularly agree with Luckygirl about the policy of not closing borders. Some countries have still got closed borders. Canada is an example. We were supposed to visit Canada this autumn for the colours, the flights are booked, but we won’t be going this year anyway. Why were our borders not closed? That was the most foolish decision, and in my opinion, it caused many more cases and deaths than we would have had otherwise.

Callistemon

I don't think we can stay locked down for months but we do need to proceed with caution.
Prohibiting large gatherings such as those which have happened should be essential.

There is a spike in Vuctoria and the Victorian Premier tried to blame it on people arriving in the State. However, I have heard that anyone arriving was made to quarantine for 14 days in hotels with guards to make sure they did so.

The Premier then encouraged everyone out on the streets for a protest and many MPs also attended. People were not distancing or wearing masks.
There was then a spike which the Premier tried to blame on people in high rise flats and then care homes.

I wouldn't want to be making the decisions but surely some decisions are obvious?

We also need to be extra vigilant when schools reopen. It's accepted that the R rate will inevitably increase, but we're already on an upward trajectory.

My local secondary school has over 2000 pupils and about 200 adults in the building. The chances that one of them will be infected in any week is incredibly high. Even with systems in place to reduce contact within the school, it's going to be impossible to stop transmission. Local systems need to be in place to test, get back results and close the school down within hours, if the whole town isn't going to be infected.

I agree with you. There does need to be consistency. This point was raised in one of the Independent Sage meetings. However, it's unlikely in practice to have made a significant difference to the number of deaths so far.

Even somebody who caught Covid-19 in March could still die from it. We know that the most dangerous time starts a couple of weeks after initial infection. We also know that the effects are long-lasting. For the statistics to make much difference, it would have to be people who were infected in March and then died of something completely unrelated between 1-4 months later, which isn't very likely.

Who said it was?

Whichever way it's counted the excess death toll is 65000. The NHS was protected because so many died at home/care settings. I don't think that it's any sort of achievement.

I don't think we can stay locked down for months but we do need to proceed with caution.
Prohibiting large gatherings such as those which have happened should be essential.

There is a spike in Vuctoria and the Victorian Premier tried to blame it on people arriving in the State. However, I have heard that anyone arriving was made to quarantine for 14 days in hotels with guards to make sure they did so.

The Premier then encouraged everyone out on the streets for a protest and many MPs also attended. People were not distancing or wearing masks.
There was then a spike which the Premier tried to blame on people in high rise flats and then care homes.

I wouldn't want to be making the decisions but surely some decisions are obvious?