My husband refuses to believe in coronavirus

It makes you realise what a slow process evolution is. It was only 400 years ago that people believed in witch trials - some people don't appear to have evolved their thinking that much.

For grumppa
My attempt to make it more readable. I don’t think I have done it very well. Sorry.

“*as they really cannot cope with reality*”

But what do we actually mean by this?

Previously you will see I found all the people called “Conspiracy Theorists” (CPs) I was asked about by complaining members of the family actually knew a lot of facts. The term has become pejorative, a "crazy trouble-maker, spreader of *misinformation".

I learned a lot of facts from the people the families were complaining about. All facts were verifiable. The statistics were from the Office of National Statistics (hatched, matched and dispatched)

Our reality is actually that which we want to believe. We usually are convinced we are right, especially if it is an official line from our Government. The vast majority of us are law abiding. It is unpalatable to think the government might be wrong and we tend to reject the idea. We like to be led with clear rules. Even though our Government breaks Laws, our PM lies, and other people leading us and making Rules at this time have broken their own rules, we still like to show how law abiding we are.

We are in “unprecedented times” we are told several times a day. This apparently has allowed our govt to do things never known to happen before. Things not allowed by the Magna Carta, I am told.

People turn against the minority who start to think independently. These minority have rocked the boat by finding anomalies in what the Govt says. We label them as CTs which has become a severely critical and belittling term. We keep the rules and like to be good citizens. So we denounce anyone who disagrees with anything that is said by the government. We know we are superior to these dissenters and we make our separation from them clear. We are not one of them. We hate them.

It’s a shock when a family member ‘jumps ship’ and disagrees with the status quo. As now when they disagree about Covid etc. We show in this discussion how we regard these people as crazy and also mentally unstable.

But I have reason to believe many of these people speak facts and are intelligent. I have checked many facts and statistics and found the so-called CT is right. I found that the BBC* and PM were more likely to state misinformation.

Therefore the person troubling you has their own reality which, were you to take time to check, I’m sure you might find many examples you could not refute. I think it is judgemental and wrong to regard them as silly, stupid or as “comforting themselves because they are scared”. To say a list of numbers shows more deaths from flu than Covid or to show that the number of deaths from all causes is lower this year than last year as we went into lockdown in March is neither escaping reality nor being scared in my book. It sounds like a very good point and intelligent.

To query why Ferguson was cosen to make a predictive model, a man who ruined Farmers, caused suicides, was wildly wrong on so many times costing the country so much money, is a very sensible question in my book.

To keep an eye on the stats and ask why the Govt’s CMO and CSO are lying is correct. Watch Sir Desmond Swayne MP Cons youtu.be/jqIYDTIdg2o

All new discoveries in science were not met with understanding at first. It is not for us to think that we know everything and that those who disagree are wrong, even though they may sound extremely “way out” to us. I looked up Gates’ under skin ID chips in people in West Africa. It exists. Later I looked again. How interesting. The many articles had gone! He obviously got to hear people were not keen. But it does exist. So does censorship of the WWW.

The people I feel lucky to have met and whom their family member thought were getting demented, were highly intelligent. The things they were saying that the family did not like turned out to be true. Even the Bill Gates evidence. The idea that there is a plan to crash the monetary system in order to start the “Great Reset” was immensely plausible. The work on the Great Reset had clearly begun many years ago and incorporated Covid apparently before 2019.

I could go on.

The heavily contemptuous language used to put down the CT in this discussion reveal a phenomenom of human nature. Circumstances have made it even more important to demonstrate allegiance to the status quo. Publicly denouncing the chosen ‘enemy’ (here the minority who are not in full approval of all that is being done,) raises our position as a good citizen.

Consider where this has happened before in an authoritarian society. Also, when were books burned, just as scientific research and articles have been disappeared from the internet? When were neighbours asked to report misdemeanours of others?

I cannot join the chorus of denigration of those who have different points of view, nor agree that seeing a conspiracy is necessarily a bad thing. I think everybody has the right to their own thoughts without being stigmatised for them. So long as nobody is harmed we do not have the right to judge another’s “reality” as less real than our own, or say ours is right and theirs is wrong.

* BBC 'fact check by our Scientists' in which they said the nasopharyngeal swab or any other thing could not get to the brain, among other reasons because the "brain is completely surrounded by bone" and" it would have to drill through bone." I'm a Neuro-Psychologist trained by leading Neurologists at the Institute of Neurology. What the BBC "Scientists" wrote was incredibly wrong. So obviously wrong a six year old could show why (and did). They ignored that the skull has holes in it, eg for the nose, eyes, ears, mouth. Indeed Surgeons sometimes perform brain surgery through the nose (endoscopic endonasal surgery). They ignored the cribriform plate which is penetrable with a quite soft instrument. It's another subject but again it tells you why the people labelled Conspiracy Theorists get so irked because a lot of lies like this have been blatantly purveyed by public entities such as 'Aunty Beeb' and the public are believing them.
For evidence that the BBC is largely a propaganda machine see 'The FakeNews Factory: Tales from BBC-land' and
'BBC: Brainwashing Britain?: How and why the BBC controls your mind'
Both by David Sedgwick

I go to an online discussion group where there are two or three contributors who refuse to wear masks or get a vaccine, and they believe Mr Trump.

I think I will ask " do you believe public health and hygiene have been enforced by law for more than a hundred years?"

There may be some people who regard themselves as having good brains, superior education, impressive credentials as "researchers" but I would be amazed if many of these people have a solid scientific background, including a good grasp of statistics, epidemiology, virology and vaccine development.

"Do your research" has become a mantra for the deluded who understand nothing about scientific research, and the rigorous standards of peer-reviewed journals.

I would go further and say that anyone posting "do your research" has already gone a long way down the internet rabbithole.

Okay why would all these people on tv such as Mps, doctors, professors, so many professionals be so brainwashed discussing it I cannot imagine the doctors in my place of work being controlled by Bill Gates? Nhs staff are getting the flu jabs and we have clinical trials for COVID vaccine but it’s not compulsory so no big pharma is benefiting from it. It’s actually an insult to these professionals to suggest they are so weak in character as to be controlled by Bill Gates.

quizqueen, I know it's a waste of time telling you, but for the umpteenth time, Covid is caused by a coronavirus, which is related to the common cold, not a kind of flu, which is caused by a totally different kind of virus. It's like saying that a mouse is the same as an orang-utan as they are both mammals, or a bicycle is the same as a bulldozer as they are both vehicles whose names begin with a B.

Sir Jeramy Farrar ( Sage advisor) has stated today that:
This virus is now in my view, part of humanity. It is an endemic infection now
Exactly what Dr Mike Yeadon said months ago.

Alegrias2

There was a question about conspiracy theories at FMQs in Scotland today, and apparently 1/4 of people surveyed believed in one or other of the conspiracy theories they had read on the net.

The links that other Grans have posted look very helpful, I have nothing to add but I hope you find a solution nightrider.

I've read that from a number of sources about a 25% of people believe in conspiracy theories.

It's horrifying.

Iam64

Flygirl - conspiracy theorists seem to believe the rest of us are bonkers. Works both ways

Bonkers ... and usually of an inferior intellect (according to them).

grumppa

Any chance of an executive summary?

It would be a good idea! Reading it all has been quite a few minutes of my life I'll never get back!

Tillybelle I'm not sure that I have the time or energy to address all the misinformation in your posts - and I'm not sure it would even be worth it. You've obviously made up your mind.

However, I'll just put you straight on one thing. Neither the government nor anybody else is " counting Covid deaths in the same column with flu and pneumonia". That has been fact checked and is one of the myths flying around. It is absolutely false.

grumppa. Fair comment working on it....

People don't die in theory-

If he believes the virus was "released" rather than it naturally happened due to ignorant human action, is understandable-

But not believing that people are dying is another ball of wax, a complete immersion in the loss of reality-

Daddima

As one whose job it was to do research as a University Research Fellow and teach how to do research to University Students, you can imagine, I heartily agree with you!
It is frustrating when people claim to know everything on a subject and say they have researched it! It also irks me when people say "Scientists have found that..." or "Research has found.." and don't cite the reference or give more substance.

Being able to get away with a massive fraud is actually really easy. We can see here. This is a microcosm of society, in a way. We can see how people not only defend the information they have been given but like to show what good citizens they are by rudely condemning the dissenters. The language used against the dissenters is vehement and disparaging. You'd think the minority of not-convinced would be of such very poor intelligence or having a nervous breakdown trembling curled up in a corner. I happen to know they are nothing of the sort. Many are Professors in Universities.

The only defence the Believers in the Covid Life have for everything they are doing or that is being done, is to belittle, denounce, condemn and detest those who do not believe the scam presented to the world.
The non-believers on the other hand, produce data - Government data, scientific evidence, Doctors from the front line, Nurses ditto, whistleblowers from hospitals denouncing the lies about the death figures, numbers such as I showed where the covid deaths seem to replace the absent flu and pneumonia deaths..... In fact I have been sent that again, I'll add it.

Getting people to think for themselves is usually impossible. Even teaching in university has sunk to dictating notes so the students write them down and write them back in their course work for their degree; no longer reading references, discussing topics, arguing points, writing a critical essay of their own citing their references..... That's what I found.

But I can't stop my brain from taking in information, listening, analysing, checking, gathering official data (the data is the key) making notes of what people say, watching out for lies such as the BBC one I mentioned above, and reading everything I can that is verifiable.

Meanwhile people are dying-
because their cancer was not treated
and I am trying to support them.
A Wife has brain damage from the violent husband in lockdown
and I am trying to support her and her mother....
examples of the real casualties
together with
the harrowing memory of
the murders
of elderly patients in Residential Care
whose medication was withdrawn,
whose family visits were withdrawn,
whose right to NHS care was withdrawn,
whose palliative care was withdrawn....
leaving them to die in pain, and fear while
under resourced,
under trained,
under protected,
abundantly loving Carers
tried comfort them and cried in distress at their distress
and even died too.

....and I ask God to forgive the Minister for Health Matt Hancock for this completely unnecessary and preventable suffering that his policies designed.

Because I cannot understand or forgive that level of utter cruelty.

Any chance of an executive summary?

as they really cannot cope with reality

But what do we actually mean by this?

If you read my reply above you will see that I found the people you are saying are hiding behind a "false reality" actually know many facts. Facts that I did not know and found printed on public official documents such as The Office of National Statistics. Indeed, facts that made a very big difference to how things should be seen. Particularly when I looked at data from the government's own publications.

I think our "reality" is actually that which we want to believe.

We are convinced we are right. Remember how people greeted Darwin's theory of evolution. It wast not filled with universal support for his wonderful theory. Many were very scornful and no doubt he was disparaged by many high ranking figures. However now we respect him very highly. It may not be the best example but maybe we do need to be a little humble and not so ready to condemn some of the people who delve more deeply and do research finding facts that we find unacceptable.

I do believe everyone needs to follow the simple rules none the less. That is somewhat different.

I think it is generally accepted that most people want to believe the official line. We have always trusted our government, known we live in a democracy and we have always toed the line and done our bit for our country. So now we step up and support the Govt and do what they say. Unquestioningly. It makes people very uncomfortable to even try and imagine that the government may be wrong. People like to be led and not have to think about how to manage difficult situations. Indeed we need to have a consensus in our approach. But I do think some people are almost too ready to jump forward and display their strong adherence to the rules and belief in the official line. Look at the language in the replies here. The disparaging words for those who differ in their views. It's as if we need to wave a flag to show how strong is our belief in the official picture. So we keep to the rules and are good citizens.

Then - wham! - we are hit between our eyes by our loved one whom we trusted as being in the same mould as us and supporting all we held as right and true, as suddenly he spins around and says,

"No!" he will not accept the status quo!

He has been doing some personal investigating. He is a free thinker. He understands numbers. Maybe he says Ferguson is a disastrous and very bad modeller of numbers, has damaged the country many times already, does not have the right training/degree and with his contemptible, unforgivable damage in the past, he cannot accept his being used again! Maybe more recently he says, please listen to Desmond Swayne MP Cons, New Forest West and read the letter to which he refers, or look at the interview of that wonderful Cancer Doctor Professor Karol Sikora "Lockdown Was an Overreaction". youtu.be/jFRR58D1oW0

Because these facts are his reality.

You see, the term 'conspiracy theorist' has become synonymous with "crazy trouble-maker, spreader of misinformation". But literally and historically it is just a theory of a conspiracy, usually a conspiracy to do harm, but not necessarily.

Similarly I found that the "misinformation" I was asked to use as evidence a person was losing his marbles turned out to be scientifically or numerically, or officially published correct facts! Misinformation, in fact was more likely to be found from the mouth of the PM, the website of the BBC, and so on...

I must honestly say, in my research into the matters brought up by those upset because they have a 'Conspiracy Theorist' in the family, the things the theorist says have all been checked as facts. In so doing, I must add, I found that the BBC had done a long article about a 'fact check by our Scientists' in which they said the nasopharyngeal swab or any other thing could not get to the brain, among other reasons because the "brain is completely surrounded by bone" and" it would have to drill through bone." I'm a Neuro-Psychologist trained by leading Neurologists at the Institute of Neurology. What the BBC "Scientists" wrote was incredibly wrong. So obviously wrong a six year old could show why (and did). They ignored that the skull has holes in it, eg for the nose, eyes, ears, mouth. Indeed Surgeons sometimes perform brain surgery through the nose (endoscopic endonasal surgery). They ignored the cribriform plate which is penetrable with a quite soft instrument. It's another subject but again it tells you why the people labeled Conspiracy Theorists get so irked because a lot of lies like this have been blatantly purveyed by public entities such as 'Aunty' and the public are believing them. (Especially about masks - another learning curve the people took me on although I was a bit familiar with it.)

But here I am only saying, your reality is only valid to you. Another person may know something that has been demonstrated to be true and that is their reality. Which is as valid as yours. They are not "comforting themselves". Their theories are not "silly". They want people to look dispassionately at the evidence they produce and see what they see.

We do not have the right to judge them as silly, stupid or as "comforting themselves" because they are so scared. It is time we learned some humility and remembered how in the past most scientific facts we now take for granted when first discovered seemed impossible. In this vein I shall suggest that it could be possible that coronaviruses are not spread person to person but are created within a weakened immune system in the cells of the human body. They could be a response to an environmental agent, not discernible to the human senses which reduces the human immune system's ability and the body's normal equilibrium is put out of kilter.

I cannot describe this very well but it is a genuine theory which is taken seriously and is under investigation. I'd have to look up where I read it which could take me ages, sorry.

Concerning our desire to show we are in the group who agree with the Status Quo: In fact I feel that people here seem to want too much to express the wrongness of the minority different thinkers. Publicly and strongly in severely pejorative terms they discredit them as much as they can. It is as if by showing your utter disapproval of these ignominious people you can clearly be seen as a respectable and reliable good citizen. Why do we need to prove our superior worth in this? Well, considering the contempt hurled at those who raise a point of difference or mention something to discuss, it might be a self-protective device. "I am not one of them! I hate them! I disown them!"

Now when did we have that happen in a society before?
Which society/country stopped freedom of speech? Who burned books with knowledge they wanted to keep from the people? Just as here information and scientific papers have disappeared from the internet which is of course a big library to a great extent. When were people asked to tell tales on their neighbour and report misdemeanours?
All these things are making us depressed I think. Plus the massive numbers of deaths announced every day at one point, only to be proved wrong later.

I regard myself as a Watcher and a Thinker, with an open receptive mind. I do not have a position on either side. I think our government is probably lost. I think we all have to do our best. Stick together. Respect those with other views. Follow the rules even if we do not agree with them, please persuade people that it is distressing for people if others choose to break the rules. I do believe we shall get through this. Try not to get despondent. It's only a matter of patience and time and we'll be able to get together again.

Night writer I had my shopping delivery this morning. My delivery drivers has had 2 close relatives die from Covid . The one funeral was last week. That person was housebound and they don't know how he got it. He said anyone who thinks Covid isn't real they should go to a Covid ward. That would be a wake up call.

Flygirl

Try listening to him.
He's not far wrong.
Do a bit of real research instead of accepting everything we are being force fed on a daily basis, and you'll find a lot of what he's saying is spot on - but people can't, or don't want to see it. Look at Dr Vernon Coleman, Professor Dolores Cahill, Dr Heiko Schőning, Dr Mike Yealdon (ex Pfizer...yes, the vaccine manufacturer), journalist Anna Brees (ex BBC/ITV) to name but a few. All experts in their fields and all with a completely different viewpoint.
You may even surprise yourself. If still not convinced there could beca different angle on all this, back away, as your husband has a right to his views, too.
Agree to disagree.
Personally, I'm with him.

You missed Rashid Buttar, another eejit. And talking of research......( sweary word alert!)

There was a question about conspiracy theories at FMQs in Scotland today, and apparently 1/4 of people surveyed believed in one or other of the conspiracy theories they had read on the net.

The links that other Grans have posted look very helpful, I have nothing to add but I hope you find a solution nightrider.

This type of thread is one of the reasons I have ceased posting and am thinking I will leave GN. Since the pandemic arrived GN seems to have become either boring or inane, a time wasting occupation.

Flygirl - conspiracy theorists seem to believe the rest of us are bonkers. Works both ways

For goodness sake! Anyone who dares to have a different view is deemed mentally ill and should have a word with their doctor??!!
Is that how far we have actually gone down this rabbit hole?!

Looks like a few of the conspiracy nutters have tried to infect Gransnet with their pseudo ‘research’.

Having worked in HE for many years and examined theses for higher degree awards, it’s quite depressing how many poorly educated people believe that utilising Google and reading a few web pages constitutes genuine ‘research’.

If only it was that easy!

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202011/medium-554661-screenshot-2020-11-11-at-16-08-37.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202011/medium-874773-screenshot-2020-11-03-at-14-16-22.png

Cossy and all of us:
In fact to the public it is hardly of any importance whether it is in the flu group or not. It is the effects that bother people.

It has been less fatal than flu. It is most dangerous to the over 80s with other diseases. The average age of those who died of it (including figures that later were agreed should not have been called Covid deaths) was 83. The average age of death in the UK is 83.

Average number of deaths from flu on Official Government Numbers from 2014-19 = 22,206 the ave. no of flu deaths to September 2020 were 394
Average number of deaths from pneumonia on Official Government Numbers from 2014 to 2017 were 30,000+
the ave. no of pneumonia deaths 2020 were 13,691

It seems to me that 2020 so far is very much lower than one would expect numbers to be for deaths from flu and pneumonia. In fact about 38,121 lower. What happened? How is it that in 2020 people suddenly stopped dying from flu and pneumonia?

BUT in 2020 we had Covid-19 for the first time ever.
The number of deaths at the time these figures were compiled for 2020 from Covid-19 were around 40,000.
(It has been named as higher since).

Now, we know that many "covid" deaths were not correctly attributed, so probably it was a bit under 40,000

I can't help seeing how that number for "Covid" fits so neatly into those missing figures where we would have expected about the same number to have died from flu or pneumonia but apparently didn't this year.

And then didn't the Government announce that now they are going to count Covid deaths in the same column with flu and pneumonia? Only about 15,000 died of these instead of the average expected of over 52,000? Where did they go? Did they suddenly get terribly healthy? It's a big coincidence that the missing number of people who we would normally expect to see in the death columns under flu and pneumonia is very much the same number as those who have been registered as dead by 2020's newcomer in the death figures, Covid-19.

The problem when people say that they do not agree with the numbers and their wife asks me to make them see sense or even are they getting dementia is, I have to check exactly what it is the person is doing that the wife cannot accept. I listen to what the "crazy" person is claiming then I check it. I go to the Office for National Statistics and Wham! I am left facing the truth. I politely ask if the husband is saying anything else that distresses the wife. This sets me off looking at more figures, such as how healthy we were when we went into lockdown last March. So he's not crazy, but very well informed.

Then another distressed lady asks about her son a student who is "in with the wrong crowd" No, it is not drugs! Thank Heavens I say and thank the Lord. They are saying the new vaccine will be a microchip and Bill Gates has microchipped people in Africa. I ask for their evidence. Yes Bill Gates has proudly announced it so has the vaccine charity CEPI (from memory, is that right?) and several pages online from news articles. I since have sought these and OH! they've gone! and Cepi has a new way of storing their no-name ID which does not mention the tattoo method under the skin they went to lengths to proudly describe before. Clearly it met with condemnation and Bill had his WWW. mates change the google searches etc.
You see, a small group of billionaires own everything to do with the WWW and have the power to influence governments. They are richer than countries after all. So they can decide what we shall know or not know. The BBC selectively tells us what it wants us to know, often leaving out major news that does not fit its views. There are books revealing this, all factual an d checkable. Google only supplies you with what the people running the internet want you to see. Similarly FaceBook, Twitter etc are all censored and monitored. There is a good film about this too by ex employees from high posts in the Companies. But you won't find it on google or you tube.

You see, I was a normal Gran. But I am a Scientist and did research as a Research fellow. I looked at the government's own data. Then I looked at what people call Conspiracy Theorists' data. They used the Official figures too. This was from the people I was asked if they were going mad. From my Counselling work I'm vaguely aware of the weirdos you will find anywhere and can imagine they are saying a lot of strange things now, but I was not asked to look at them.

Plus remember, Covid has never been the highest reason for death in the UK. Not the second highest, or third...
In September it was lower than the top ten.... indeed it has only entered that list once when the govt refused NHS care to the Residents of Homes who became ill, sending them back and seeding their illness among the other residents with untrained Staff for this kind of care and no proper equipment not even PPE for Staff. You may remember. The numbers were also enhanced by Covid being put on the death certificate because the government made the fact that a positive test on the unreliable PCR was on the death cert. even if they were knocked over by a bus. Of course we know there were so many relatives who complained that their deceased relative had "Covid" on the death certificate even though they knew beyond doubt that it was not the cause. So why? Even I wrote to my MP about this. He did not reply. Why would the Govt want to announce artificially high death figures?
I think the Hon Member for The New Forest is worth a watch: youtu.be/jqIYDTIdg2o

I would add that I cannot make sense of the fiscal measures the government resorts to. Someone said the Bankers rule the world from behind the scenes and I would concur here. I would suggest you learn about Fractional Reserve Banking. It's a USA system but so relevant and is crashing. For us we are ruled by the City of London. I suggest "The Finance Curse" by Nicholas Shaxson. Also, before Covid took hold there was an excellent German discussion on You Tube with sub titles from which I understood a lot: youtu.be/8LYjOEib9iI
I think the "Great Reset" is behind a lot of what is happening. If I look up who said it I shall lose this letter but someone was sarcastically saying did they think we would become like China? (She also said S Korea but I'm sure she did not mean that or maybe it shows the level of ignorance of those who condemn a deep thinker as a stupid conspiracy theorist?) Anyway, the answer simply is, yes, a new system of a surveillance economy will be introduced modelled on China. It will be sold as wonderful. It will be horrible.

Also the public have always been kept in the dark about a lot of medical decisions and matters. My research was on medical issues so I do know.

It might be wise to give those we know who are intelligent and whom we love some respect when they have a different view about all that is happening at this time. Maybe ask them to have patience with our views and feelings too as we are the ones trying to keep going, shopping, cooking and so on.

While people react here with "hit his head against the wall" kind of reactions we can hardly expect someone who is intelligently looking at the data and seeing massive problems with what we are being told to be happy with that treatment. Also they are realising there are a lot of peer reviewed medical research papers being censored which were previously highly regarded, and being met with aggressive dismissal as an idiot by their family is not going to change their view of what they have researched, Being written off as an idiot or crazy person is hardly appropriate. The people I know are very far from that. Most are more highly informed and have a scientific background, which gives them a thorough and painstaking approach to the data they analyse and the anomalies they investigate.