Nightingale hospitals being readied for use

There are only 7000 medical, nursing, paramedical etc. staff in the army - many of them are already deployed supporting troops throughout the world, and running military hospitals in the UK. To put it into perspective, if all those that can be deployed are, it would maybe staff two nightingale hospitals in the whole of the UK. It’s a minute part of the solution, although politically it sounds like an answer if you don’t check out the facts.

I assume the reason we have sufficient staff to run our Nightingale Hospital here in Devon is because we have a lower rate of infection/staff sickness here.
Also a lot of military personnel are trained down here.

I think you’re right Ellianne - there was a report for Wales the other day that said 8,000 NHS staff are currently off sick. In areas with low Covid incidence it’s easier for clinical areas to reorganise their staffing to cover other areas, but when staff sickness is high they aren’t able to do so and maintain safe staffing levels.

Why can't they use unqualified staff such as nursing assistants and a minimum of qualified staff to run the nightingale hospitals. They could be used to take old people who are well enough to leave ic but not well enough to go home. It's the bed blockers that are the problem. I know if one couple both in their 80s with covid who were over the worst and were given a private room to sit and watch tv and eat their Xmas dinner. To me if you are able to sit on a sofa and watch tv, you are blocking beds for the really ill. The likes of this could be in a nightingale, leaving the acute hospitals for the really sick.

The figures for the army do include healthcare support workers. Patients who have a long recovery requirement are transferred to community hospitals within the NHS, so the vast majority who are in district general hospitals are still unwell, many of them are on oxygen, and they need qualified medical and nursing care. Nightingale hospitals are often on different sites to general hospitals, and although they are a solution for some areas, many of them don’t have the facilities of general hospitals, who can’t spare the staff to look after patients on split sites anyway. It’s not by any means a panacea.

ethel I already said something similar, although I don't agree with calling people 'bed-blockers'.
No-one is deliberately blocking a bed, they are being failed by the system.

Sitting on a sofa doesn't necessarily equal being able to cope at home.
Those people can still need help - just not skilled medical help - and it's not their fault that is isn't available in a sensible way.

Dwmxwg

The military medical staff are already part of the NHS. My niece works in A&E in a large hospital. Last night they were very busy, all patients COVID related illnesses and they were 7 staff members down. Not quite sure where these “extra” drs and nurses will come from

Military medical staff have been working in NHS hospitals for very many years, at least 20+ years to my knowledge.

Why can't they use unqualified staff such as nursing assistants and a minimum of qualified staff to run the nightingale hospitals. They could be used to take old people who are well enough to leave ic but not well enough to go home

These patients need convalescent care; the Nightingale Hospitals were set up to be critical care units which provide different facilities to those required for convalescent patients.

ICU staffing levels are 1:1 - apparently it has risen to as much as 1:4 in some hospitals. The pressure must be incredible for the staff and very high risk for the sick.

I wonder if unemployed workers trained as hotel staff , people who are accustomed to looking after others, taking orders from superiors, might be trained fast to do bedside nursing such as assisting at mealtimes , recording blood pressures and suchlike, and sitting with the dying , so that trained nurses can be released for the more complex tasks .

The current pressure is horrendous for the staff, certainly in Wales where there are over 2500 Covid patients in hospital at the last count, ITUs are full and overflowing onto other wards, and staff have had leave cancelled to keep areas safe, many staff are exhausted, and feel that they are being very badly let down by the public. It’s very frightening for them, and for us I think in the parts of the UK where the virus is rampaging at the moment.

Well said genty.

Alexa other medical staff have already been trained in ICU procedures, ready to go in if necessary but that means other areas will be very understaffed.

I think hotel staff etc could be more hindrance than help.

Casdon, for me, the key part of your post was that nhs workers 'feel that they are being very badly let down by the public.'

Those that are not following the rules, yes, absolutely. I try REALLY hard not to wish ill on idiots (really, I think it is immoral to do that and try to stop myself) but it is VERY hard sometimes.

Yes.

In the first proper lockdown, there was the Thursday night clapping, priority shopping slots, free hot meals and drinks, groups sewing scrubs - but now- what is being done to support NHS workers? Seems like not much. No wonder they feel unappreciated.

growstuff

Genty

There would be sufficient staff if the hospitals werent at full capacity with all the covd patients.

I don't understand the logic of this. Transferring patients to Nightingale hospitals would mean diverting staff from normal hospitals, so there would be even fewer staff and empty beds.

Im not saying transfer the patients from another hospital, if covid is suspected they should go direct to triage in nightingale. to be assessed. The extra staff from normal hospitals would not be needed if the hospitals werent so over crowded, therefore nightingales would be staffed.
Why waste tax payers money on building them if they are going to sit there and rot!

vegansrock

In the first proper lockdown, there was the Thursday night clapping, priority shopping slots, free hot meals and drinks, groups sewing scrubs - but now- what is being done to support NHS workers? Seems like not much. No wonder they feel unappreciated.

Not forgetting all the raised monies that people have donated to the NHS wheres that all gone? What has it been spent on?

At least 2.5 million bed days were lost in the NHS since the Tories came in power due to underfunding.
People who are delayed discharges awaiting a transfer of care are nearly all there because either a community care package cannot be sourced yet (due to insufficient care staff in the community, the position is worsening due to lack of workforce), lack of a bed in the care home of choice, or a family dispute about somebody going home. This group make up less than 10% of total beds occupied in the NHS, and is a moving group (obviously) as some are discharged and more people fall into the category on a daily basis. Most of them are not occupying beds in acute hospitals, they are in community hospital and mental health beds, and a high proportion have dementia.
Genty, you should do more investigation of your own before you shoot from the hip, all the evidence to support this position is in the public domain if you care to look.

Genty

growstuff

Genty

There would be sufficient staff if the hospitals werent at full capacity with all the covd patients.

I don't understand the logic of this. Transferring patients to Nightingale hospitals would mean diverting staff from normal hospitals, so there would be even fewer staff and empty beds.

Im not saying transfer the patients from another hospital, if covid is suspected they should go direct to triage in nightingale. to be assessed. The extra staff from normal hospitals would not be needed if the hospitals werent so over crowded, therefore nightingales would be staffed.
Why waste tax payers money on building them if they are going to sit there and rot!

I really, really don't understand this. The Nightingale hospitals don't have any staff of their own. Patients are, in effect, expected to provide their own.

Not forgetting all the raised monies that people have donated to the NHS wheres that all gone? What has it been spent on?

That, however much it sounds, is just a drop in the ocean and I think was donated to support the staff (ie so they could have a meal as canteens were closed) rather than provide essential services which should be funded by government.

Here, during the first lockdown, staff were thankful to receive food sent in by local firms and volunteers so they at least had a meal when on a long shift.

The staff at our Nightingale have at least had a few happy moments since opening. Christmas trees were donated by farmers and garden centres, and were placed round the perimeter. I believe Tesco donated decorations and outside lights. They organised a Carol service on the wards with visiting clergy. Local golf club sent in presents. Supermarkets have delivered food. etc etc. Well done on a local level for making Christmas seem a bit brighter!
The hospital is currently 20% full.

Far North:

"A lot of nursing doesn't require special medical skills - it's to do with keeping patients clean and comfortable.
If the army is training personnel now, to do this work, that could take some strain off qualified nursing staff."

I fully agree. I'd add the simple psychological skill of reassurance.

You are hugely underestimating how sick most people who are in hospital with Covid are if you think that people without nursing qualifications, however well trained can look after them. Yes they can manage their basic nursing needs, and be trained to spot significant signs of a deteriorating condition, but they are not a substitute for qualified staff, and certainly could not staff nightingale hospitals without a very significant level of qualified support form doctors nurses, and very
Importantly also, physiotherapists.

Unless you are suggesting a nursing home type environment - in which case people could be discharged into nursing homes surely, as sadly there are plenty of vacancies at the moment, although not enough staff. It’s very easy to come up with solutions when you have no knowledge, or when, as the Government is doing, you are trying to reassure people that there isn’t really a problem that is is danger of running out of control - which is the reality.

Scotland's 'nightingale' hospital.