Chris Whitty moves to head off GPs' rebellion over vaccine doses

What is happening in the UK has massive implications and risks, way beyond the UK.

Pfizer specifically say that their vaccine against Covid19 must be taken in two separate doses 21 days apart. Only one dose and its ineffectual, any longer than 3 weeks and its ineffective.
UK Government planning a 12 week delay between doses for some ridiculous reason (maybe they can't get enough doses into the country?).
Not only will this political choice make those vaccinations ineffective according to the vaccine manufacturer, it will also make the vaccine unlicensed.
And yet it gets even worse than that. There are warnings that if a person has a single dose or a second dose 3 months later this process actually ENCOURAGES the Covid19 virus to adapt and work up immunity to the vaccine and then this mutation can then travel the world infecting other countries where they are vaccinating properly with a new mutation created in the UK that is immune to the vaccine.
The UK Government are simply a danger to the world and totally irresponsible. Someone needs to stop them. But WHO?

we are so so lucky to have our very own residential medical expert on GN ... you must all feel so relieved.

Meanwhile the world watches aghast as the British population is used as a giant guinea pig.

....And of course we still need to do the hands, face and space.
Even with the flu jab we still sometimes get flu after all.

Are they really on the way? I wouldn’t bank on it....

Indeed, MayBee. I just hope that whatever it is results in a change back to the original policy. Totally agree with whitewave that we should accept what Pfizer is telling us at the moment. But why is the JCVI saying what it is saying - and also Chris Whitty? I see him as an honourable man. Something is going on.

It seems to be a case of scientists/virologists not quite agreeing with each other, political ‘need’ wanting as many people to have some protection as possible and any other reason you can think of.
The main thing though, is that our ‘jabs’ are on the way.

Also if they mess up & make the first dose ‘worthless’ there will be additional vaccines needed overall as people will still need two doses of one.

Maybe. The reality is they don’t know whether one is enough for 12 weeks or not.

I cannot imagine why they are doing this but it really looks like some sort of panicked responses

What the hell is going on?

growstuff

www.ft.com/content/d97c72c5-ed23-4c2b-bf1c-9cc10b21f007

Pfizer is saying the “safety and efficacy” of the new schedule had not been evaluated and, while partial protection through the vaccine appears to begin as early as 12 days after the first jab, Pfizer stressed in a statement on Thursday that two doses were required to provide the maximum protection against the disease, with an efficacy figure of 95 per cent.

Crucially, it said: “There are no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days.”

I hope to goodness the last statement doesn't prove to be true because people will have had the first dose for nothing.

I think that until there is empirical evidence to the contrary, we have to accept what we are being told by Pfizer.

www.ft.com/content/d97c72c5-ed23-4c2b-bf1c-9cc10b21f007

Pfizer is saying the “safety and efficacy” of the new schedule had not been evaluated and, while partial protection through the vaccine appears to begin as early as 12 days after the first jab, Pfizer stressed in a statement on Thursday that two doses were required to provide the maximum protection against the disease, with an efficacy figure of 95 per cent.

Crucially, it said: “There are no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days.”

I hope to goodness the last statement doesn't prove to be true because people will have had the first dose for nothing.

Not sure if this is old news on here but both Pfizer and AZ now say (lunchtime news) that there are no hold-ups on delivery of either of these vaccines. So why is Chris Whitty reported as saying there are hold-ups and, apparently, giving that as a reason for the one-jab policy? Could it be there is a shortage of staff to give the vaccines? Potential volunteers on GN and other places have reported the general bureaucracy surrounding applications to volunteer. I smell a few rats.
I agree that the MHRA should publish their evidence for authorising the new Pfizer regime.

If there was more transparency from the government in their decision making with regard to vaccine usage and availability I think the public would have more confidence in them, and may even be sympathetic. I don’t want to hear any more silliness such as the cavalry coming over the hill.

I also think the MHRA should publish their evidence for apparently authorising the new Pfizer regime.

It is the same growstuff. It is just less likely to happen with vaccines. It happens with chemotherapy as well.
I’ve just discovered that Andrew Read (who is a bit of a hero of mine ) has written about monitoring resistance in Covid vaccinations here:

journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3001000

This is the key line from that paper Strongly suppressing pathogen transmission through vaccinated hosts is key to preventing the spread of partial resistance should it arise, since it reduces the opportunities for selection to act

And that’s the bit that meddling with the gap between doses (& possibly mixing and matching, I’m less clear on that in this specific case) messes with.

GagaJo

growstuff

The Oxford/Astra Zeneca and Pfizer vaccinations work in very different ways.

I agree with you Greeneyedgirl. It seems to me that once again the government over-promised and is determined to hit its target for political/PR reasons, rather than listening to what Pfizer is saying.

It is so depressing. We have the tool to get us out of this mess and our government is taking unnecessary risks.

I definitely thought medics should get the first vaccines. BUT now that they have been given, we should not waste them simply for political spin, but should go ahead with the 2nd dose as planned.

I'm not sure that there are enough doses left for a second dose. I still can't find any definitive details of Pfizer deliveries.

It won't work Whitewave.

Nezumi65

The reason I am concerned they may not keep the data is that one reason for mixing and matching is if the first dose is unknown. It should not be unknown - it should be recorded fgs!

The JVCI in the UK has just announced that it's unacceptable to give people two different vaccines. That's going to cause problems because there's a global shortage of the Pfizer vaccine, which is what people in the UK have been given.

Nezumi65

From the Read paper you linked to the key concept is this: Resistance mutations are less likely to appear in small populations (7), and when such mutations appear and confer partial resistance within a host, they are unlikely to replicate to the large population sizes that are associated with onward transmission

The issue we have here is changing the dosing regime increases the risk of larger population sizes & onward transmission. So you are removing one of the safety features.

It wouldn’t be so dangerous fiddling with the regime in NZ because there is zero community transmission - here we have rampant community transmission.

Anyway experiments on all fronts.

I misunderstood you. I thought you meant the kind of resistance which occurs with antibiotics.

The reason I am concerned they may not keep the data is that one reason for mixing and matching is if the first dose is unknown. It should not be unknown - it should be recorded fgs!

The mix and match may work. But it may not. Really they should keep data of this experiment on the British public. And people should have the choice to consent to it. That is basic medical ethics.

If this little experiment does lead to vaccine resistance (which the 12 week gap and possibly the mix and match approach) increases the risk of then we are not going to be popular with the rest of the world.

This is a good discussion, GNers. Please keep it up.
I agree NotToOld. The man CW, the scientists, the government the vaccine companies, the technology etc.

What I don’t understand is, how the mix and match idea can possibly work, given that entirely different technologies- were used to produce the two vaccines.

Pfizer used the newer technology of genetic engineering, using part of the DNA of the virus, whilst Oxford was based on the older more tried version, of using a coronavirus in the form of primate cold virus, rendering it harmless.

Until we have the empirical evidence showing that the two can be mixed, I think the risk is too great.

It was CW that stopped testing and tracing back in the spring so I don’t actually have a great deal of faith in him.I read something on Facebook about people being vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine followed by the Oxford one. This must surely be fake news. I’m not concerned about the spacing between first and second vaccines: the Oxford vaccine is probably more efficacious with a 12 week gap. What I’m really worried about is a delay in rolling out the Oxford vaccine as this government seems incapable of getting anything right. The exception being food supplies which have been very well maintained throughout the pandemic. Let’s hope brexit doesn’t change that.

I am hoping that pressure will cause a u-turn, as I think the risk of mix and match and delay has as yet zero empirical evidence.

growstuff

The Oxford/Astra Zeneca and Pfizer vaccinations work in very different ways.

I agree with you Greeneyedgirl. It seems to me that once again the government over-promised and is determined to hit its target for political/PR reasons, rather than listening to what Pfizer is saying.

It is so depressing. We have the tool to get us out of this mess and our government is taking unnecessary risks.

I definitely thought medics should get the first vaccines. BUT now that they have been given, we should not waste them simply for political spin, but should go ahead with the 2nd dose as planned.

This is a good discussion, GNers. Please keep it up. Yesterday morning I still felt elated from knowing the AZ vaccine was approved for use but today, agreeing with growstuff, I am concerned that one dose of either vaccine will be only partial protection and so I will not feel confident to stop taking my current precautions. Perhaps I was naive to think otherwise. I also would like to hear from Professor JVT but, as someone upthread has already said, I reckon he will not appear unless he can speak his mind. That will definitely be an indicator for me.