For everyone who's bending the rules!

Whatever the Government did or didn't do, the general public do all have ears, eyes and brains. The disease spreads by way of droplets exhaled by those infected and breathed in by inhaled by those breathing in the exhaled air.

It is surely obvious to everyone that not breathing in air that has been breathed out by someone infected or someone possibly infected but not yet aware of it is the best way to avoid it. That means treating everyone you meet as a potential carrier.

Human rights, freedom, dictators, biased press pics of apparently crowded beaches, any buzz word or battle cry that gets taken up, are quite separate from the question of preventing the spread of this disease We have been told what spreads it and what measures will minimise the spread. We can carry out the measures and be part of the solution or refuse to carry them out and be part of the problem.
If we don't want to permanently lose any freedoms, we should be making sure that restrictions are temporary, not just ignoring them then saying they don't work..

growstuff I was not comparing the COVID rules with the Nazis. Do please read my posts a bit more carefully.

Franbern said Reporting on neighbours, family, friends - absolutely horrifying in my opinion. The German Nazi party supported this sort of action, as did the Stasi.

She was referring narrowly and specifically to the systems in Germany and East Germany that encouraged people to report on their friends and family. A system that led inexorably to people being afraid to express any views that the governement did not agree with, for fear of intimidation arrest and worse. Not surprisingly the Nazis had a similar sytem in their country that worked equally well.

There is I think a very reasonable fear that habits of reporting on your neighbours, that seem so virtuous in times of pandemic could become systemised and common almost by default. The development of technology since the days of the Stasi and Nazis makes this very frightening and we have only to see how efficiently the Chinese have used all the wonders of technology available to them to watch every citizen to an almst 1984 level, to see that this is a path we should not put one foot on.

Elegran

The problem is that we are not being given advice to follow, we are being coerced. And what we are being told to do doesn't make sense or follow any logic. Yes we have been told what measures are required to stop the spread, but these have been surrounded by such hysteria that it is hard to make any sense of what we are being told. It spreads less outside, it spreads less if you meet fewer people. So why are two people alone on a park bench told they are doing something wrong? We are told that children don't get the disease so why are schools closed? We are told it is a virus and yet for some reason it differs from all other viruses that have ever existed in its inability to confer any immunity. We were told that if we locked down in the spring it would give the NHS breathing space so they weren't overwhelmed. That makes sense once, but not three times.

And do you really think that it doesn't matter that we have willingly giving up freedoms that previous generations have fought and died for? Because I think it matters alot. If we can regain them soon and make sure we never give them up or have them taken away again it might not matter in the long run. My fear is that some of them are lost forever and we will all be poorer for it.

There is no choice. We have to give up some freedom to prevent more deaths.

Children do catch Covid and they do spread it.

Those who fought and died for freedom would have been the first to do the right thing. Don't spread such emotive nonsense!

Yes, most people know the country has weak leadership, which makes things up on the spot and bends to pressure from whackos, but use your brain and eyes and see that the only way the virus is being transmitted is through human interaction. It really isn't rocket science.

Go and do a fact check GrannyRose15 and come back when you have something sensible to say.

I do have some sympathy with some of what GrannyRose15 has said.

Its very clear that people don’t understand why the restrictions are what they are, and if you don’t understand, it makes them more difficult to follow. The message isn't getting across that we have a “budget” of interactions that we can deal with. So for a few months last autumn we could cope with schools being open because the level of infections that resulted in was manageable. But if we had added (for the sake of argument) meetings of up to 20 people for example, the level of infections would have been too high to manage. We were allowed to meet over Xmas, and that, along with the new variant, has sent cases sky-high for a while. Nothing is “safe”, and while people don’t understand that we are making trade-offs its only a matter of time until they “revolt”.

During the first lockdown I remember thinking, if we have to do this again, it’s a failure of government. And yet here we are.

As for the restrictions themselves, these are probably the toughest restrictions we have ever had on our freedoms. When were we last banned from travelling around the country? Feudal times maybe? And have we ever been banned from entering each other’s homes? I can’t think of a time. While most people understand why we are having to do it, we also must remember that government in this country is by consent, and we have to make sure that this level of restriction doesn’t last a second longer than it needs to.

GrannyRose15
It was thought that children didn't get it, but they can, and they can spread it around. The schools have been open or closed according to the latest advice on this - and according to the pressing need for parents to be able to work without having to look after children at the same time. The children of key workers have always been in school.

The NHS did get breathing space, but then people went straight back to mingling again, and the virus took advantage of that and spread even further than predicted. Now a variant has been discoveredwhich spreads faster - so the NHS has even more people to look after all at the same time. These waves of patients couldn't be easily predicted because this is a new virus which no-one had any data on until it happened and the situation kept changing. A more decisive government might have been better at guessing, but they gave what they thought was the best advice at the time. Maybe we should have used a crystal ball and voted for whoever could have guessed right and made strong and unarguable rules, but we didn't.

The restrictions that we are being asked to follow all have end dates. They are not open ended. When the restriction comes to an end, the situation is reassessed and a further restriction added with its own definite end date. There are enough people in Parliament who appreciate the dangers of unlimited controls being put in place and are watching to make sure that it doesn't happen. What we, the public, have to do is to note that there actually IS an end date on each restriction, and to let out MPs know at once if we see that there isn't!

SpringyChicken

If the virus can spread through droplets in the air and we are advised not to touch our faces, I wonder if the virus is caught through our eyes. Will goggles be the next protection requirement?

The physio that visited my husband at home was told she has to wear goggles which she visits people's homes now.

I disagree that waves of patients couldn't be predicted Elegran. We don't have orders of magnitude more patients than we did in the first wave, and yet it appears to me that the NHS haven't been given nearly enough resources to cope with even the 10% (?) increase in intensive care patients that we do have. Nobody needed a crystal ball to predict that the winter was going to be a hard one, in fact we were often told that, but I can see no evidence of effective planning from the government to manage that. Their only weapon seems to be to keep us in our houses.

GrannyRose
We are told that children don't get the disease so why are schools closed? We are told it is a virus and yet for some reason it differs from all other viruses that have ever existed in its inability to confer any immunity

Children do catch it but usually (not always) do not get it badly or are asymptomatic but could spread it.

We don't know that much about immunity in those who have Covid as yet because it is a new mutation and as yet we don't have a lot of data.
As a new mutation, of course, no human had immunity.
That is why scientists develop vaccines because viruses mutate constantly and we have no immunity to the mutations.
This particular virus has been around for thousands of years but, for some reason, mutated recently so that it could be passed from human to human.

So why are two people alone on a park bench told they are doing something wrong?
I really can't answer that - if a couple who live together have a rest on a park bench I can't see why that is wrong, but if they are from different households that could be potentially hazardous.

And do you really think that it doesn't matter that we have willingly giving up freedoms that previous generations have fought and died for?
Many fought and many died in WW1 for freedom but many more died from the 'Spanish' flu which spread worldwide and killed far more people just afterwards.

My fear is that some of them are lost forever and we will all be poorer for it.
I think some things may need to change and I don't think that they will necessarily be for the worse - possibly for the better in fact.

But surely the absolute main aim is minimising the number of people who contract this awful virus ?.Even many people who don't become hospitalised are suffering long term effects and taking weeks and months to recover.So yes ICUs need the resources and staff but the absolute key is avoiding contact and staying home as much as possible until the vaccination effort starts to take effect.We could have thousands more ICU beds ideally but how awful if they were all full.

There does appear to be some good news. The incidence rate of infection is still high in most areas, but it is generally (apart from parts of the North East and West Midlands) heading in the right direction:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1APtcBmI4JeTR0Ysufjavgg2gy4MBiHz0Hf9eKIp5BSo/preview#gid=1865138965

There's been a consistent pattern for a few days, so fingers crossed it will continue. People need to hold their nerve.

The government also needs to support those most affected, which is overwhelmingly the poor. That will be their real test, no matter how they try spin things. Watch what they do with Universal Credit and support for the self-employed and small businesses.

Washerwoman

But surely the absolute main aim is minimising the number of people who contract this awful virus ?.Even many people who don't become hospitalised are suffering long term effects and taking weeks and months to recover.So yes ICUs need the resources and staff but the absolute key is avoiding contact and staying home as much as possible until the vaccination effort starts to take effect.We could have thousands more ICU beds ideally but how awful if they were all full.

It's not rocket science, is it? The trouble is that some people still think it's some kind of global conspiracy to control populations, the statistics are faked or that 5G or Bill Gates is involved.

I posted this earlier on a different thread:

For the first time in a month our area is seeing a reduction in reported COVID cases (but not deaths, sadly. Hopefully that will come very soon now.)
I don't normally bother with slight changes but these have been reported for nearly a week and it's now quite a substantial change, -22%. We've actually gone from purple to blue. With the vaccinations underway finally I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. That's worth a quick dance round the sofa to me.

There are two main theories for eradicating infection - "herd immunity" and "zero covid". Countries such as New Zealand and those in east Asia aimed for "zero covid" from the start, with harsh lockdowns and restrictions.

The UK has always been influenced by a "herd immunity" approach, which involves hundreds of thousands of deaths and long term effects. As Toby Young (and others) have pointed out "herd immunity" has the "advantage" (!) of killing off the weaker and more vulnerable members of our society.

SuzannahM

I posted this earlier on a different thread:

For the first time in a month our area is seeing a reduction in reported COVID cases (but not deaths, sadly. Hopefully that will come very soon now.)
I don't normally bother with slight changes but these have been reported for nearly a week and it's now quite a substantial change, -22%. We've actually gone from purple to blue. With the vaccinations underway finally I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. That's worth a quick dance round the sofa to me.

Same here Suzannah. It's certainly grounds for some cautious optimism.

Herd immunity is a valid target Growstuff it's how we keep measles under control. Herd immunity is achieved through vaccination, not through accepting hundreds and thousands of deaths.

NZ has achieved zero covid through strict border controls and that is unsustainable in the long term.

We've even turned pale blue - surrounded by a sea of dark blue and purple.

SuzannahM

I posted this earlier on a different thread:

For the first time in a month our area is seeing a reduction in reported COVID cases (but not deaths, sadly. Hopefully that will come very soon now.)
I don't normally bother with slight changes but these have been reported for nearly a week and it's now quite a substantial change, -22%. We've actually gone from purple to blue. With the vaccinations underway finally I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. That's worth a quick dance round the sofa to me.

My area has also dropped 22% this weeks along with the surrounding 4 boroughs around us, they are all showing the same trend so I suppose it means if guidelines are clearer they are easier to follow and lockdowns - even not full ones- actually work. I feel it is a bit pointless blaming other people, we can't control other people's actions, we can only control our own.

Alegrias1

Herd immunity is a valid target Growstuff it's how we keep measles under control. Herd immunity is achieved through vaccination, not through accepting hundreds and thousands of deaths.

NZ has achieved zero covid through strict border controls and that is unsustainable in the long term.

Sorry, yes I should have mentioned vaccination. It has never been achieved without it, which is what the government tried to do.

Alegrias1

Herd immunity is a valid target Growstuff it's how we keep measles under control. Herd immunity is achieved through vaccination, not through accepting hundreds and thousands of deaths.

NZ has achieved zero covid through strict border controls and that is unsustainable in the long term.

So what do you suggest? In the short, medium and long term?

Do you follow Indie Sage Alegrias?

Keep going with the current restrictions; a really good public information campaign explaining what were doing and why - get people onside and stop the blame culture; as fast a vaccine rollout as we can manage; easing of the restrictions step by step when deaths and hospitalization levels allow; initiate research now to understand how long vaccine induced immunity lasts; identify triggers that will indicate when/if levels of immunity in the community are reducing; contingency plans for further vaccination or hospital provision when needed.

I don't follow indie SAGE Growstuff Is it worthwhile?

In view of all this , what level of risk is an MRI scan this week? 10 minutes allowed to clean the room and enclosed machine?