Second vaccine dose timing

Alegrias. I just don't get your attitude:
Sigh KaEllen. I’m not answering your questions, because I just can’t be bothered. I’ve answered them so often, but you’re entitled to keep on believing what you like, of course. One thing I agree with you about, scientists are human. So when a scientist says over and over again “the sky is blue” and people keep coming along and saying, “Well obviously it’s green”, it can lead to some shouting.
A bit off the mark. A fair analogy would be, some scientists saying, 'the sky appears to be blue', or even 'I am fairly certain the sky is blue'; and other scientists saying, 'there may be some green', or 'we can't say this with certainty'.

Well, no need to thank me. My PhD thesis was reviewed by a Nobel prize winner before submission. What’s your claim to fame?
No claim to fame from me, but I know that I can think for myself.
You come across as a bit full of yourself; you really are convinced that you have the RIGHT answer, and don't want people to ask questions.

And by the way - having refused to answer my questions, you do further down in the thread give some actual links - again, I don't get that attitude.

Well said KaEllen. Certain posts somehow don't ring true and have reminded me more than once of a previous poster.

janeainsworth

Growstuff if you bothered to listen to any of Tim Hartford’s podcasts or programmes you might not be so quick to dismiss him out of hand.

As for Michael Portillo, it’s probably not necessary to be able to build a steam engine in order to make an interesting and informative television programme about a railway journey

Why should I bother to do anything? How rude! Why don't you bother to do half the stuff I do?

Tim Harford can't have seen any empirical data because there isn't any. Somebody doesn't become an expert just because he's written a book or is on the radio.

Having just read some reviews and feedback of Harford's podcast and book by real scientists, it's obvious he might know a lot about the economics and politics of vaccination, but they are scathing of his medical knowledge.

I don't think I will bother listening to him, after all!

What a nasty, snide little thread this has become. Dismissing media people who are trying to educate their audiences, and unless I'm mistaken, accusations of lying, kept indirect of course to avoid being accused of personal attacks. Crack on then, knock yourselves out.

I for one am glad that they are getting as many as possible a vaccination. And will be very grateful when they get to the younger people with underlying conditions. It's sad when someone 80+ dies but I find it much more distressing when you see young people who havent had a chance of life losing their life

Alegrias1

What a nasty, snide little thread this has become. Dismissing media people who are trying to educate their audiences, and unless I'm mistaken, accusations of lying, kept indirect of course to avoid being accused of personal attacks. Crack on then, knock yourselves out.

Really? My daughter, whose original degree is in economic history, wrote her MA thesis on disease, including pandemics, in the US and Australia. She knows a lot about the economic and social consequences of dealing with pandemics and how states make political decisions, etc etc. However, I don't suppose she has a clue about dosing schedules because she doesn't have a medical or scientific background. I would rather be "educated" by somebody who knows what they're talking about.

I guess spouting about vaccinations without specific expertise is one way or earning a living and paying the bills!

PS. The cracks certainly are beginning to show.

OK then last word from me. If you have time on your hands take a look back at my posts. Take time to see that I've never claimed to know how to assess dosing regimes. Notice that I said on Thursday that I think it's right that doctors - i.e. people with relevant knowledge - should challenge decisions. On Friday I said I thought they may well change the dosing decisions in the future when there was more evidence. I showed a couple of times how the decision was made by scientists who are trying to save lives when people were blaming the government for political decisions. I did get a bit short with people continually posting the same opinions which are based on sparse knowledge of how the decisions were made. But unlike some I never resorted to personal attack and hurtful comments, nor attacked people about things they've never said.

I understand it's about more people having some protection that has the potential to save twice as many lives in this precarious situation we are currently in than fully protecting half as many people. Think I'd rather and loved ones have some protection than none.

.....I did get a it short with people who were posting the same opinions based on sparse knowledge of how the decisions were made.

No! People were posting the same opinion based on there being no evidence that lengthening the time between jabs gives good protection.

biba70

Very long and distinguised history of building Steam Engines in OH's family- but I truly fail to see the link.

It’s an analogy.

I’m a bit concerned about all the people being interviewed saying how lovely it’ll be to go and cuddle their family members again.
I’m sure it has been made clear that the protective effects of the vaccine take a while to emerge. I wish they would accompany each interview with a reiteration of that fact.

Mollygo
I agree that is a big concern. It suggests some people don’t understand the vaccination situation. Full immunity only after two doses for example. And we don’t yet know if the vaccination prevents transmission or not.

I agree Mollygo I find it hard to believe that the message has not got across to some people that this is not a vaccine to stop us catching the virus, not has its efficacy in preventing transmission yet to be established.
So no, I won’t be “cuddling my grandchildren” for months yet or using public transport, going into shops or meeting up with friends.
And I will still wear a face covering.
It’s not rocket science is it?
Today in the DT. by Jonathan Van-Tamm on the gap between vaccinations
Some people are questioning the UK policy of trying to give as many at-risk people as possible the first dose of vaccine in the shortest possible time, inevitably extending the interval before the second dose is given. But what none of these (who ask reasonable questions) will tell me is: who on the at-risk list should suffer slower access to their first dose so that someone else who’s already had one dose (and therefore most of the protection) can get a second? Everyone on the JCVI priority list is at risk from this nasty virus, and vaccines just can’t be produced at an unlimited rate

He has a point.

maddyone, 'Full immunity only after two doses' would be so wonderful - but it's not guaranteed. The vaccine works to reduce the chances of serious illness and death, for most people, but not all!

We actually have no choice in this unless the powers that be change their minds we just have to get on with it.
I am so hoping this will eventually start to bring the rates of hospital admissions and deaths down because we cant live or exsist in this lockdown state forever.
Some may be prepared to stay in for an indefinite period but many will not. We need children back at school and we need businesses to start to open again if they are to have any chance.

Yes Hetty thank you, I understand that. It’s not really full immunity is it, the best is about 95% I think. So that’s what I meant really. And of course, we don’t know if the vaccine prevents transmission yet. In time, these questions will be answered, but for now we don’t know.

Of course Johnathan Vann-Tamm has a point, but how are people chosen to receive the vaccine now? A list of priority was made and it is being roughly followed. The same would apply. It’s important to note that the BMA have made their opposition to the vaccine spacing well known.

DD phoned for a chat over the weekend, and dropped into the conversation that she has seen some data that is beginning to suggest that the Pfizer vaccine will be safe to leave a longer gap. Oxford as we know has always been ok.

Apparently more data needs collating, but it was certainly cheerful news I think.

Thanks whitewave that does sound encouraging.

Oh that is very encouraging Whitewave. Excellent news.

janeainsworth

Growstuff if you bothered to listen to any of Tim Hartford’s podcasts or programmes you might not be so quick to dismiss him out of hand.

As for Michael Portillo, it’s probably not necessary to be able to build a steam engine in order to make an interesting and informative television programme about a railway journey

Maw I know it is an analogy. In a way, a good one. Portillo is very good at making those amazing journeys, but I am pretty sure he would have NO idea on how to mend the engine!

Same for Tim Hartford, re solving the conumdrum with the gap between does. He is NOT qualified to do so.

And yes Van Tamm has a point. Anyone pretending that the issue is an easy one, is just plain nonsense. Which is clearly why even those with relevant knowledge and experience do NOT agree.

The point about Tim Harford is not that he isn’t a virologist or an immunologist.
Neither are all the ‘medical correspondents’ who come on the BBC and ITN news to give us our daily dose of doom and gloom.

The point about Tim Harford is that he is an excellent communicator which is why he’s employed by the BBC to do More or Less, and to write his column for the Financial Times.

As well as his degree in PPE and his MPhil,
He has won the following awards:
(From Wikipedia)
More or Less won the Royal Statistical Society's 2010 award for statistical excellence in broadcast journalism. In 2017 Harford was made an Honorary Fellow of the society.
More or Less won Mensa's award for promoting intelligence in public life.
Harford was awarded the Bastiat Prize for economic journalism in 2007 (shared with Jamie Whyte).
In 2010 he again drew with Whyte, in second place.
He was awarded the OBE in the 2019 New Year Honours for services to Improving Economic Understanding

Managing the pandemic and the rollout of vaccination is as much an economic, logistical and social problem as it is a medical one.

I think Tim Harford is well qualified to comment on the issues from that point of view, more so than the virologists. It’s a team effort, with input required from all sides, not just down to one small segment of the scientific community.

A slow-down is reported in vaccine production and delivery.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55805903

Same for Tim Hartford, re solving the conumdrum with the gap between does. He is NOT qualified to do so

When people are as hung up on data and statistics as they are -in the media and here on GN- it is both refreshing and useful to have a statistician to unpick those figures. That is what Tim Harford does - he does not pretend to be medically qualified but knows how to understand and interpret data and then communicate it in a way the layperson can comprehend.