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Italy insist on all medical staff must be vaccinated.

(42 Posts)
mokryna Sat 10-Apr-21 19:17:31

Italy insist on all medical staff must be vaccinated. If they refuse they are to be sent home without any pay. Do you think this should happen in every country?

Spidergran3 Wed 21-Apr-21 17:33:35

B9exchange

If you choose to work in a role caring for sick or vulnerable people you will have to have a hepatitis B jab. No jab, no job, your choice. I can't see any difference with the covid jab. Not mandatory for anyone else, but in those roles, yes.

This

Rosalyn69 Wed 21-Apr-21 15:08:11

Yes.
When I did nurses training back in the 70s we had to have several vaccinations as soon as we started. It wasn’t a choice.

Kali2 Wed 21-Apr-21 14:57:21

A friend in her late 60s has severe health problems and has to be fed by tube. She is trying to keep as fit as possible and went cycling in a safe off road lane, but she fell and broke her shoulder and her tib and fib. She was not vaccinated because they wanted to do it in hospital due to her health issues, and was waiting for her appointment.

She is now home after nearly 1 month in hospital- and has to have daily care at home twice a day, and physio every other day - and she is terrified, as she has no idea whether staff are vaccinated or not- and the agency told here she could not ask or insist on it.

So for me, the answer is YES.

maddyone Sun 11-Apr-21 13:15:59

Doodledog
I had two very ill babies in SCU (as it was called then, but now NICU) and thankfully didn’t have to contend with that trauma on top of my babies being very sick. It must have been awful for you, and it truly goes to show the dangers when some people opt out of vaccination.

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 13:12:30

Doodle I can understand why you feel the way you do given your awful experience.

BlueSky Sun 11-Apr-21 13:10:02

Sadly their refusal reflects on people in general. I’ve heard: “If medical staff refuse the vaccine, they must know something we don’t know”!

Doodledog Sun 11-Apr-21 13:09:30

I have posted on here before about this, but the reason that I feel strongly that vaccination should be as forcefully encouraged (ie not mandatory, but a requirement of continued employment for medical staff) is because of what happened when my son was born.

He spent some time in special care, and one of the SHOs on the unit was from abroad, and had falsified papers to suggest that his vaccinations were up to date. They weren't, and it turned out that he was carrying TB. All the babies who had been in the SCU were 'recalled', and had X rays and blood tests, and were given prophylactic medicine in case they had been infected.

My son was 2 weeks old. I vividly remember the experience, and would not wish that on anyone, particularly someone who has already been through the trauma of having a baby in SCU.

I know it's not an exact parallel, but all the same, I would set aside my usual 'live and let live' attitude in this case, and make vaccination a requirement of a medical role that brings the holder into contact with vulnerable people.

maddyone Sun 11-Apr-21 13:02:31

.....in the face of the evidence and the situation......I find it hard to understand why so many staff are still resistant.

Me too, in Italy, in Britain, and everywhere else. My brain just can’t cope with it. I just don’t understand the objections unless there’s a medical reason.

maddyone Sun 11-Apr-21 12:54:30

suzie
Luckily that was the only time we had to see the manager face to face, as all other visits are done by the carers. Any other contact with the manager will be by telephone. She was wearing a face mask and she sanitised her hands. I asked about the carers and PPE and it transpired that the carers wear face masks and gloves. My mother keeps disposable aprons in her flat and she asks them to wear one of those too, as she asks her cleaner to wear one, along with her mask and gloves. The aprons are quite cheap, less than £10 for 100 and we buy them online.
I’m not sure if the manager has a line manager or if she manages the whole area, but we’re not going to complain as we don’t want to make things difficult for Mum, and we won’t see her again in any case. If we hadn’t had vaccination and had Covid, I would have been a lot more cross, since carers were offered vaccination quite early on in the programme. I can’t help thinking these people are selfish (unless there’s a medical reason) for not getting vaccinated, because they will still benefit from the rest of us being vaccinated and they probably know that.

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 12:49:20

Agree Casdon. I don’t really know much at all about Italy apart from what you’ve posted and linked to. I just hope that in the UK the issue is left to the appropriate employers to deal with ( as is happening) and we don’t get any stirring up of a moral panic.

Casdon Sun 11-Apr-21 12:30:52

suziewoosie I agree, I know what’s happening in the NHS too, and I think it will work, given that the education programme will become increasingly tough for staff to withstand if they are refusing from anything other than the strongest medical or moral grounds. At least now we have bought some time in the UK to do it this way. I’ve read quite a lot about the current situation in Italy, and I think the current crisis there is very serious, so I can understand the perspective of vaccination being critical too - must admit in the face of the evidence and the situation that I find it hard to understand why so many staff are still resistant.

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 12:29:20

maddy I absolutely agree about new contracts and indeed think they should find a form of words that would cover future necessary vaccines ( for the next pandemic) .I was shocked at your experience with the manager - who manages her? Can you complain or would that be tricky? Does she at least wear appropriate PPE when she goes in?

maddyone Sun 11-Apr-21 11:59:59

I do think vaccination could be written into the contract of new NHS workers and carers, but I don’t think those who are currently employed can be forced. Education is definitely the way to go.
Interestingly I had a conversation with the manager of the Care Agency that my mother now receives daily care from. Although the carers are vaccinated, the manager was not, and yet she was visiting my mother in her home to discuss needs etc. My mother has received her first vaccination as have I, and we both unfortunately had Covid, and so we’re probably well covered. I was a bit miffed though to find this lady sitting in my elderly mother’s apartment unvaccinated. I tried my best to persuade her that vaccination is the way to go, especially if she visits elderly people in their homes. She told me she had no reason other than not wanting to be vaccinated, for not being vaccinated. People like this annoy me because they are relying on everyone else to keep Covid infections down and to keep them safe.

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 11:00:57

Casdon

I think it’s a lot harder for a frontline healthcare worker to argue their right to remain unvaccinated in the current situation in Italy suziewoosie - they have sadly now overtaken the UK in terms of deaths per million, and rising. The Government is between a rock and a hard place, as justifying unvaccinated staff and the risk they pose to the public when so many are dying from the virus is as hard as legally fighting employees who don’t wish to be vaccinated, and the former will have much more support from the public.
There’s a lot going on behind the scenes in the NHS to persuade staff to take the vaccine, but if that fails then it will be negotiated, and ultimately written into contracts, even if that takes years. From what I’ve heard, it’s not so much doctors here who are refusing as nurses and HCSWs, and the current view is that education is the first resort.

I’m not prepared to comment on the Italy situation as I don’t know enough. I know about behind the scenes work in the NHS and social care as well and that’s why I think we should just let them get on with that (which is the right way to go) rather than just criticise workers and come up with simplistic solutions. Normal staff turnover will help as well.

I think some of the media coverage about this issue has been ( as usual) inaccurate, alarmist and knee jerk.

Casdon Sun 11-Apr-21 10:43:59

I think it’s a lot harder for a frontline healthcare worker to argue their right to remain unvaccinated in the current situation in Italy suziewoosie - they have sadly now overtaken the UK in terms of deaths per million, and rising. The Government is between a rock and a hard place, as justifying unvaccinated staff and the risk they pose to the public when so many are dying from the virus is as hard as legally fighting employees who don’t wish to be vaccinated, and the former will have much more support from the public.
There’s a lot going on behind the scenes in the NHS to persuade staff to take the vaccine, but if that fails then it will be negotiated, and ultimately written into contracts, even if that takes years. From what I’ve heard, it’s not so much doctors here who are refusing as nurses and HCSWs, and the current view is that education is the first resort.

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 10:42:56

Galaxy

I would also imagine it's one of the least productive ways to deal with the issue, I dont know if Italy has the same issues with retention and recruitment of care staff as we do, and there is also the issue of bodily autonomy and the impact these decisions will have on other aspects of healthcare. It is not a decision to be taken quickly or without a thorough understanding of the implications.

Perfect summing up of situation. As is so often true, to every complicated problem there is always a simple solution and it’s usually wrong.

Galaxy Sun 11-Apr-21 10:37:50

I would also imagine it's one of the least productive ways to deal with the issue, I dont know if Italy has the same issues with retention and recruitment of care staff as we do, and there is also the issue of bodily autonomy and the impact these decisions will have on other aspects of healthcare. It is not a decision to be taken quickly or without a thorough understanding of the implications.

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 10:30:48

Polarbear2

Cool. Yeah I get that 👍

I actually feel a bit guilty about health and care workers as well which explains why I think we should treat the vaccine hesitant with respect in trying to encourage them to get vaccinated. Many - social care workers, health care assistants etc- are on minimum wages or thereabouts and a year ago many were having to work with totally inadequate PPE. Additionally many worked far above and beyond what we had any right to expect to care for us all. I just think we should remember all that when we are discussing how to handle the problem.
As for Italy, I don’t expect that hardline to work

Polarbear2 Sun 11-Apr-21 10:20:31

Cool. Yeah I get that 👍

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 10:17:05

Polarbear2

I respect your point and I’m sure you’re better informed than I am but - I disagree. If you want to continue a front line job, and there’s no medical reason you can’t have the jab, then it should be mandatory. 3 months consultation period. Suitable alternative employment offered. I’d guess an absolute tiny minority would stand firm.

It simply can’t be done like this legally no matter what you would prefer. My position is that individuals who are vaccine hesitant have to be dealt with on an individual basis with respect for their autonomy being the starting point of the discussion. Then we could see how much of a problem remains. We’ve also got to avoid falling into the trap that being vaccinated = unable to transmit virus. Proper infection control including meticulous use of appropriate PPE remains essential.

Galaxy Sun 11-Apr-21 10:16:44

hmmpresumably that should say.

Galaxy Sun 11-Apr-21 10:15:49

And oresymbably people shouldn't be able to receive care if they dont want to be vaccinated.

Polarbear2 Sun 11-Apr-21 10:09:58

I respect your point and I’m sure you’re better informed than I am but - I disagree. If you want to continue a front line job, and there’s no medical reason you can’t have the jab, then it should be mandatory. 3 months consultation period. Suitable alternative employment offered. I’d guess an absolute tiny minority would stand firm.

Grannynannywanny Sun 11-Apr-21 10:08:03

In recent weeks I have been allowed indoor care home visits with a loved one after a year of window visits.

I’ve been vaccinated. On arrival, I have a covid test and wait 30 mins for result. Then I’m dressed in PPE for our 30 min timed visit. Despite my vaccination, covid test and PPE we have to sit 2 metres apart for our visit.

For the rest of the day he will be cared for by staff who work 12 hour shifts in very close proximity to residents and some of them may well be unvaccinated by choice. If they are, then surely care home residents are more at risk from them than visiting next of kin?

suziewoozie Sun 11-Apr-21 09:54:25

Polarbear2

Yes. (Where I worked) All nurses, doctors and associated health care professionals had to have a range of vaccinations in order to get a contract. Just add this one on. No drama.

It’s a different issue making vaccines a pre-employment condition rather than a post employment one. There are important legal issues here for one thing