Stats on the up

Alegrias1

The Great Barrington Declaration?
Calm down dear

Acceptance that Covid will be endemic? Mainstream scientific thinking.

Refusing to accept that? A bit confused. Keep up dear.

If you are vaccinated you can still catch and pass on Covid. The German authorities are accepting that some people who have been vaccinated will not get tested and so will be in the community. Passing it onto all sorts of people. They won't have to put up with the inconvenience of testing or restrictions that the unvaccinated will.

Yes. The game hanger seems to be the fact that the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection or (more importantly) transmission. I still think we have to do everything possible to reduce viral load which is why I’ll be wearing a mask for the foreseeable future. And I’m hoping the research into therapeutics will come up with some good ones.

Alegrias1

The Great Barrington Declaration?
Calm down dear

Acceptance that Covid will be endemic? Mainstream scientific thinking.

Refusing to accept that? A bit confused. Keep up dear.

If you are vaccinated you can still catch and pass on Covid. The German authorities are accepting that some people who have been vaccinated will not get tested and so will be in the community. Passing it onto all sorts of people. They won't have to put up with the inconvenience of testing or restrictions that the unvaccinated will.

Oh! I have kept up. Try it!

MayBee70

growstuff

MayBee70

Dr John did say that there were scientists in this country that were of the same mindset but that he was interested to hear what SAGE were going to say.

There always have been scientists in the UK who have advocated the Great Barrington Declaration approach. Essentially, it accepts the survival of the fittest.

I don’t think it was those looney ones that DrJohn was referring to. Which is why it took him a couple of days to do the blog ( which often happens if he doesn’t like what he feels he has to say). My first thought was, so where does that leave people with compromised immune systems: people undergoing chemo therapy etc. I’m struggling with processing it all, which is why I had to stop listening and took the dog for a walk. I just wonder where we would be now without the vaccines. If only we’d had a vaccine ready when the pandemic first started. And, imo it’s even more important to find out the origins of this virus.

I wouldn't call them loony, but the scientists referred to by Dr John have always had opinions leaning towards a particular approach.

MayBee70

Alegrias1

The Great Barrington Declaration?
Calm down dear

Acceptance that Covid will be endemic? Mainstream scientific thinking.

Refusing to accept that? A bit confused. Keep up dear.

If you are vaccinated you can still catch and pass on Covid. The German authorities are accepting that some people who have been vaccinated will not get tested and so will be in the community. Passing it onto all sorts of people. They won't have to put up with the inconvenience of testing or restrictions that the unvaccinated will.

Yes. The game hanger seems to be the fact that the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection or (more importantly) transmission. I still think we have to do everything possible to reduce viral load which is why I’ll be wearing a mask for the foreseeable future. And I’m hoping the research into therapeutics will come up with some good ones.

Nobody has ever claimed that vaccines stop infection or transmission, although some people seem to think that being vaccinated means that no further mitigation is needed. It's concerning that immunity wanes so quickly.

Dr John was saying that it's inevitable that everybody will be infected, so logically there's no point in trying to avoid it. He also hinted that most teenagers don't have serious illness, so there's no point vaccinating them. That is not what the German government is saying. It's trying to force people to be vaccinated by restricting activities to what most would consider an unacceptable level.

Mixed messaging in England continues to be a problem. If it's true that infection is inevitable and that it doesn't matter if teenagers are infected, why was Gavin Williamson trying to blame irresponsible parents for not insisting that their children test? He was trying to offload blame if schools close again. Why not ensure that schools have the resources to install effective ventilation? Why wasn't that done at the beginning of the summer holidays?

OK growstuff I'm sure you're right.

growstuff

MayBee70

Alegrias1

The Great Barrington Declaration?
Calm down dear

Acceptance that Covid will be endemic? Mainstream scientific thinking.

Refusing to accept that? A bit confused. Keep up dear.

If you are vaccinated you can still catch and pass on Covid. The German authorities are accepting that some people who have been vaccinated will not get tested and so will be in the community. Passing it onto all sorts of people. They won't have to put up with the inconvenience of testing or restrictions that the unvaccinated will.

Yes. The game hanger seems to be the fact that the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection or (more importantly) transmission. I still think we have to do everything possible to reduce viral load which is why I’ll be wearing a mask for the foreseeable future. And I’m hoping the research into therapeutics will come up with some good ones.

Nobody has ever claimed that vaccines stop infection or transmission, although some people seem to think that being vaccinated means that no further mitigation is needed. It's concerning that immunity wanes so quickly.

Dr John was saying that it's inevitable that everybody will be infected, so logically there's no point in trying to avoid it. He also hinted that most teenagers don't have serious illness, so there's no point vaccinating them. That is not what the German government is saying. It's trying to force people to be vaccinated by restricting activities to what most would consider an unacceptable level.

Mixed messaging in England continues to be a problem. If it's true that infection is inevitable and that it doesn't matter if teenagers are infected, why was Gavin Williamson trying to blame irresponsible parents for not insisting that their children test? He was trying to offload blame if schools close again. Why not ensure that schools have the resources to install effective ventilation? Why wasn't that done at the beginning of the summer holidays?

They’ve had 18 months to do something about ventilation in schools. One of the first thing that eastern countries did was open windows. It was only recently that this government even mentioned ventilation. And, from what I’ve heard, they still haven’t updated symptom information.

It’s not true that nothing has been done about it Maybee70. This is from December 2020.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/945754/S0973_Ventilation_Actions_Summary_16122020_V2.pdf

Casdon

It’s not true that nothing has been done about it Maybee70. This is from December 2020.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/945754/S0973_Ventilation_Actions_Summary_16122020_V2.pdf

Maybe I'm missing something. I've read that link Casdon. So the government knew there was an issue and wrote a report. What has actually been done?

Casdon

It’s not true that nothing has been done about it Maybee70. This is from December 2020.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/945754/S0973_Ventilation_Actions_Summary_16122020_V2.pdf

I think ventilate was the last thing to be added to hands face space, though.

Our local primary school has been ventilating classrooms for quite some time
Don’t know if it was on the advice of government or the teachers just using a bit of common sense

rosie1959

Our local primary school has been ventilating classrooms for quite some time
Don’t know if it was on the advice of government or the teachers just using a bit of common sense

With HEPA filters?

Apart from the instructions to keep windows open and air rooms, investigations into what the best solutions are growstuff, and reports, followed by funding to help, I just don’t think it’s as simple as people are assuming to find the solutions. I’m not sure even if the ventilation is improved to acceptable standards it will mitigate that much the situation in schools, because the pupils are tactile creatures.

No Growstuff just opening the windows

Casdon

Apart from the instructions to keep windows open and air rooms, investigations into what the best solutions are growstuff, and reports, followed by funding to help, I just don’t think it’s as simple as people are assuming to find the solutions. I’m not sure even if the ventilation is improved to acceptable standards it will mitigate that much the situation in schools, because the pupils are tactile creatures.

It would make it safer for the teachers, though, who are likely to be at higher risk than the pupils.

Hopefully all the teachers have taken the opportunity to be vaccinated by now

Casdon

Apart from the instructions to keep windows open and air rooms, investigations into what the best solutions are growstuff, and reports, followed by funding to help, I just don’t think it’s as simple as people are assuming to find the solutions. I’m not sure even if the ventilation is improved to acceptable standards it will mitigate that much the situation in schools, because the pupils are tactile creatures.

But it would help. Even without Covid, poor ventilation affects learning. I well remember feeling ill at the end of the day from being in classrooms with too little fresh oxygen and an overwhelming smell of BO and fart. It's breathing in virus-laden air, not touching, which is causing most of the transmission in schools. If there can't be mitigation in classrooms, as you claim, and teenagers need to go to school, which they do, it's accepting that they will nearly all be infected and some will suffer long-term consequences. I don't accept that.

MayBee70

Casdon

Apart from the instructions to keep windows open and air rooms, investigations into what the best solutions are growstuff, and reports, followed by funding to help, I just don’t think it’s as simple as people are assuming to find the solutions. I’m not sure even if the ventilation is improved to acceptable standards it will mitigate that much the situation in schools, because the pupils are tactile creatures.

It would make it safer for the teachers, though, who are likely to be at higher risk than the pupils.

Some of the pupils will also be high risk, as will their family members. It's defeatist not to vaccinate teenagers or provide mitigation because they're an infection hub and are being forced into an unsafe environment, which wouldn't be allowed under health and safety regulations in any other situation.

rosie1959

No Growstuff just opening the windows

There are many classrooms, where windows don't open. Unless they can be opened at the top, open windows can actually contribute to the spread of virus.

Well never heard that one Growstuff Couldn’t tell you which way they open but seems to have worked very very low incidences of Covid
A few little darlings moaning it was cold till they got the balance right but no big outbreaks

Learning to live with covid means getting used to annual vaccinations, such as we already have for flu, no more lockdowns and us as individuals taking whatever precautions we feel are necessary to protect ourselves and our families. I have no plans to stop wearing masks on buses and in shops - or to stop sanitising my hands frequently whilst out of the house. All lockdowns do is delay the inevitable - until most adults worldwide have been vaccinated we will have a serious problem with covid. I personally believe we should not be vaccinating healthy children whilst healthcare workers in some countries are still waiting for a vaccination.

I think at first we did think we could contain the virus. And, if it hadn’t mutated that would have been the case. So, even if lockdowns probably won’t be used going forward it was worth doing so at the time. However, if hospitalisations get out of control I guess it will result in lockdowns. Hopefully not though.

rosie1959

Well never heard that one Growstuff Couldn’t tell you which way they open but seems to have worked very very low incidences of Covid
A few little darlings moaning it was cold till they got the balance right but no big outbreaks

Well, it's been stated a number of times that bottom opening windows can contribute to the spread of virus droplets. If somebody sitting near a window is infected, incoming air will blow exhaled breath around the room.

Top opening windows bring cooler fresh air into a room. I'm sure we all remember that hot air rises, so infected air will rise and be replaced by clean air.

The main source of transmission is water droplets. The heavier ones will quickly drop to the floor if not blown around and will soon become inactive. The smaller, lighter ones rise and will linger, if there is no escape for them.

Ideally, classrooms should have HEPA filters which are regularly cleaned.