“By the end of winter, pretty much everyone in Germany will probably be vaccinated, recovered or dead,”

It’s quite obvious we haven’t got Covid under control.

The government would like us to think they have it under control.
We are just being left to get on with it.
Even twice and thrice vaccinated people have succumbed to Covid. But the government seem to be turning a blind eye.

I can't help being a bit cynical about anti-vaxxers. If there is a medical reason why they shouldn't have the vaccine, all well and good. If it is just a case of digging their heels in for political reasons, then I think it is selfish. My SIL and her family are anti vaxxers, she says we are like sheep and we are being poisoned by the vaccine. Bit of a double standard when she has regular Botox injected into her face!!

Gabrielle56

I'm honestly at a loss as to what "freedoms" those who are always banging on about losing them - exactly are? Freedom to what? Wander around shopping centres aimlessly spending dosh we don't have on junk we don't need? / Driving around burning fuel visiting places that are- what? Different to where we live because They're in a different place?/ Going out to eat food that's overpriced , rammed into a crowded eatery with a load of other sweaty drunk people? / Go clubbing in a filthy sweaty club where dayglo shots are sunk so quickly everyone ends up chucking up and pissing in the gutter? ......maybe not , but isn't the nation's health worth a couple of years' sacrifice just to make sure? We're looking more like a load of spoiled brats the longer this continues! Gawd knows how we'd all react to another six year long war?!? " Ooh I don't want to use blackout curtains , it's affecting my human rights to have me lights blazing in the street" or " I don't see why I should be on rations, I'm vegan and I know my rights" ........don't make me laugh!

Oh dear, not sure where you get your ideas of other folks lives?

Or is that how family and folks that you know act?

But the original post was about denying medical treatment to people who don't take the vaccine.

We don't even deny medical treatment to murderers, rapists, terrorists. No civilised country does. But someone can suggest denying it to anti- vaxxers. Although I'm sure some people would like us to deny medical treatment to murderers and we could probably have a very lively thread on that topic.

GoldenAge

Agree totally with Alegrias1 - how can we possibly put the unvaccinated at the bottom of the list when we prioritise lung cancer patients who have smoked all their lives, when we treat bariatric patients who refuse to go on diets, and when we give alcoholics liver transplants?
I had covid a year ago, and since then have had my three jabs but I still don't agree that anyone has the right to tell another person that they must be vaccinated.

The difference being is that the smoker and obese person isn't putting other people's lives at risk. Just their own. Of course there is passive smoking but as a rule it's the smoker who pays the price.

If people aren't vaccinated even the lung cancer sufferer will miss out. The obese won't be treated. There won't be any room for people with routine diseases to go to hospital.

That's why mandatory vaccines are being mentioned. I don't believe we'll go down that route but as we've seen, other countries have decided it's the way to go.

It's to protect the whole population.

GoldenAge

Agree totally with Alegrias1 - how can we possibly put the unvaccinated at the bottom of the list when we prioritise lung cancer patients who have smoked all their lives, when we treat bariatric patients who refuse to go on diets, and when we give alcoholics liver transplants?
I had covid a year ago, and since then have had my three jabs but I still don't agree that anyone has the right to tell another person that they must be vaccinated.

The difference being is that the smoker and obese person isn't putting other people's lives at risk. Just their own. Of course there is passive smoking but as a rule it's the smoker who pays the price.

If people aren't vaccinated even the lung cancer sufferer will miss out. The obese won't be treated. There won't be any room for people with routine diseases to go to hospital.

That's why mandatory vaccines are being mentioned. I don't believe we'll go down that route but as we've seen, other countries have decided it's the way to go.

It's to protect the whole population.

That’s a bit of a sad view on life Gabrielle56
Just spent a lovely weekend in York it’s a beautiful city spending money we did have on some new clothes I did need.
Love visiting different parts of the UK have been away several times this year because it gets my husband away from his business or he would not stop
Eating at very nice restaurants didn’t see any sweaty drunk people
If life is not for living what is it for had enough of lockdown life is too short
Totally agree with MayBee dogs are for life if you can’t give them that then don’t have them

Agree totally with Alegrias1 - how can we possibly put the unvaccinated at the bottom of the list when we prioritise lung cancer patients who have smoked all their lives, when we treat bariatric patients who refuse to go on diets, and when we give alcoholics liver transplants?
I had covid a year ago, and since then have had my three jabs but I still don't agree that anyone has the right to tell another person that they must be vaccinated.

I thought the first lock down was supposed to have made people reappraise their lives and change their values. It didn’t last long, did it, even down to people throwing out their lockdown dogs because the joys of walking their new pet and being at one with nature were never as good as going shopping.

But that's not really the same thing is it their only hurting themselves this is about everyone else

The freedom to decide for yourself what happens to your body.

I know some people seem to think that's not important, though.

Re Sweden I read that they test a lot less than other countries——I too cannot believe the selfishness of people not getting the vaccine,so uncaring for other people especially hospital staff

I'm honestly at a loss as to what "freedoms" those who are always banging on about losing them - exactly are? Freedom to what? Wander around shopping centres aimlessly spending dosh we don't have on junk we don't need? / Driving around burning fuel visiting places that are- what? Different to where we live because They're in a different place?/ Going out to eat food that's overpriced , rammed into a crowded eatery with a load of other sweaty drunk people? / Go clubbing in a filthy sweaty club where dayglo shots are sunk so quickly everyone ends up chucking up and pissing in the gutter? ......maybe not , but isn't the nation's health worth a couple of years' sacrifice just to make sure? We're looking more like a load of spoiled brats the longer this continues! Gawd knows how we'd all react to another six year long war?!? " Ooh I don't want to use blackout curtains , it's affecting my human rights to have me lights blazing in the street" or " I don't see why I should be on rations, I'm vegan and I know my rights" ........don't make me laugh!

well but if you take out the sensationalism he's probably right....
Its another way of saying that no one can avoid being exposed to the virus....so you will either catch it and recover or catch it and not recover or be exposed to it and be protected by antibodies.

Someone I know has refused the vaccine because they believe that it hasn't been tested for long enough, and therefore no-one knows the future consequences. He will not be shaken in this conviction, and also believes that the newspapers are only reporting what the Government tells them to.
Although I think he is misguided, that is his conviction, and I don't believe that anyone should be forced into an action against their will. He accepts that catching Covid could have serious effects.

Apparently there is a surge in parts of Europe of Covid parties, where people deliberately attend so they catch Covid to avoid vaccination. I saw it reported today that an Austrian man had died, and that hospitalisation is increasing as a result.

FarNorth

^Surely the needs of the many should outweigh the choice of the few. Maybe the best compromise would be a strongly enforced passport system, where non-vaccinated are severely restricted from any venue where they could be in contact with vaccinated^

"The many" i.e. the vaccinated are at much less risk from "the few", the unvaccinated, than the other way round.
So vaccinated individuals need not be too concerned about their personal risk from others who are not vaccinated.
The unvaccinated, however, will mainly be the ones who get seriously ill and need hospital treatment which will be a big problem for our society.

and the unvaccinated are more likely to pass it on to someone else.

Milliedog

Agree with you @Lucca. But I'm sure I remember a time when all students at teacher training college had to have a TB vaccination to protect not just themselves but the children they were teaching. Anyone else remember this?

Yes, Milliedog I remember that. Before the vaccination you have to have a test (a circle of little dots were pricked onto the inside of your lower arm and you waited to see whether they showed a reaction) My test came up positive, so I must have met TB unawares at some time and formed antibodies to it. I didn't have to have the vaccination.

Surely the needs of the many should outweigh the choice of the few. Maybe the best compromise would be a strongly enforced passport system, where non-vaccinated are severely restricted from any venue where they could be in contact with vaccinated

"The many" i.e. the vaccinated are at much less risk from "the few", the unvaccinated, than the other way round.
So vaccinated individuals need not be too concerned about their personal risk from others who are not vaccinated.
The unvaccinated, however, will mainly be the ones who get seriously ill and need hospital treatment which will be a big problem for our society.

User7777

So what happened to the specialised Nightingle hospitals that were built for Covid patients. Surely getting those up and running would free up general hospitals. Maybe army medics running them

The problem was/is that it’s no use having hospital beds if there aren’t enough medical staff to man them. Recruiting army medics wouldn’t be enough.

No it’s not under control and it won’t be for years.
People should know that from the flu injection that was over a hundred years ago, and they were dying. We have a flu injection every year. Probably will be with covid too.

Definitely against compulsory vaccination. I can't understand why people won't wear face masks though and this should be mandatory unless there are health reasons not to.

I had a brush with Covid two weeks ago. My son and two grandsons come every Sunday for Sunday lunch. The following day the youngest, 6, tested positive for Covid on an LFT. My son and the older boy, 9, were negative. They all then went for a PCR test and that came back positive again for the youngest boy. The older boy was allowed to go to school, which surprised me and as my son is double vaxxed he didn’t have to isolate but the 6yr old did. I didn’t have to isolate either as I was double vaxxed but I hadn’t had my booster at that stage.

The boy with Covid sat next to me at the table and always has a few cuddles and kisses whilst at my house so I was worried I’d have it but I had tests and all negative. Other people get it without having close contact with anyone. It’s odd.

Agree with you @Lucca. But I'm sure I remember a time when all students at teacher training college had to have a TB vaccination to protect not just themselves but the children they were teaching. Anyone else remember this?

Yes, we do live in a freedom of choice society, but my choice is to be in a society where I am not put at risk by anti-vaxxers, so who's freedom should win? Surely the needs of the many should outweigh the choice of the few. Maybe the best compromise would be a strongly enforced passport system, where non-vaccinated are severely restricted from any venue where they could be in contact with vaccinated, no pubs, clubs, churches, restaurants, gyms, theatres etc. Add to that a requirement to wear masks in enclosed spaces, and we could be much safer going forward.